Jorma

51 posts / 0 new
Last post
Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture
Jorma

Is she too strong, too weak or just fine?

If you think she is either too strong or too weak, what change would you make to get her to "fine?"

Ash Lael

I think she's fine.

pizza87760

I like where Jorma is. The only tweak that I'd want is to make Undertow remove a single point of resist before dealing damage. Perhaps even limiting the resist shred afterwards to only an additional 1 or 2. Pegasus is crappy enough anyways.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Don't be talking shit about Pegasus. I am rocking the Peg in an Akatril deck i'm developing for when the patch goes through and it is putting in work.

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

Seriously folks, if you have thoughts about Jorma, please weigh in here, and do so sooner rather than too later.

nouse
nouse's picture

jorma is ok, a strong hero but not OP by any means. if drav and noran are nerfed, she'll be one of the best heros in the game but not by too much. her abilities are all well balanced and fitting, one of the few heros i definitely wouldnt touch

Yubar09
Yubar09's picture

If you leave her be you'll have to change a lot of other hero's ultimate abilities, I can sense another Era of jorma domination coming. Fix Uunys and abbas last abilities, don't nerf Norman to hell and maybe a buff to wilo and Belnir and we'll probably be fine. The minus one to her starting mana may be fine, I bet her speed will easily put her at the top spot.

Svarog Zrinski II

she's fine like this imo

4thfalco
4thfalco's picture

Jorma is perfect and exactly where all heroes should be. She's only so wide;y used because spamming haste creatures is such an obvious play style

ShawnThorn

I have no problem with Jorma herself. What is pissing me off is that if I kill a creature of hers with 4 mana (which a lot only run 4 mana and gobbles) a hasted gobbles pops out and burgles my charges...........THAT I have problems with.

Ash Lael

So prepare for it. Run charge removal. Or corpse removal. Or Dryad of the Watch to kill the haste. Or steal attack from the creature instead of killing it. Or pacify or give it timid. Or kill it with disintegrate. Or use fae's charm to steal the gobble and the charges straight back. Or any of another dozen options.

ShawnThorn

Charge removal does not stop it from stealing mine

Corpse removal is meh in this meta except as a counter, even then I would have to kill it THEN remove the corpse, and then I would have to do this EACH time they play a 4+ cost creature

Pacify and timid do work, but only after the damage is done

Disintegrate again only works after the fact or if I happen to have enough in my hand to kill all their 4 costs

Fae does work well, and works after the fact as well. This is a good counter, but not good enough. Similar to saying "well EBA/essence is OP. Time to main 4xceasefires"

and on a final note: if a single combo requires you to run exact counters to survive, there is reason to believe that combo is a bit too strong. Back in the day it was "Oh QDC OP? Run Demon armor"

nouse
nouse's picture

sorry shawn, ash is correct in this case much as i love ya.

i've run corpse removal heros amarus and uunys just fine in wars (admittedly belnir is pretty meh) soo corpse removal isn't totally meh.

disintegrate does work, because it prevents jorma getting their corpse to revive..

fae is a good counter and a viable card to run in attack. you cant compare it to running demonic armor just to counter qdc. i've won plenty of games by stealing the AI's hasted scavengers..

i play plenty of epic and for me scav goblin isn't a significant threat. i might lose the odd game to it, similar to how i lose the odd game to jormas furious revival generally.

ShawnThorn

I really can not make a case against Fae being a perfect counter, it really is as you get your charges back and all that jizz, but unless you run 4x in a deck you can not reliably guarantee that you can do that each time a gobbles pops.

Disintegrate is only good if they are at 2 health or less. Which does deal with the Ragevokers and Hellpussies, but they keep on coming and you again can not have that card in hand every time it is set up.

I guess uuny and amarus (totally a KCCG couple btw) can deal with it easy, but the other heroes can not, and no corpse removal from a card is worth the pixels it is generated on.

I am not saying you CANNOT counter the thing, just that it takes a larger effort for most decks to counter it than it does to set it up

meh I will look at this again in the morning when I sober up. Still think I will call for a cap to charges stolen.

tailings

I suppose every deck has its weaknesses, even the best of them. My current GW Petrice deck eats up Jorma, hasted Gobs included. Dust applied with Swipe negates it happening most of the time, and the stray one that gets through is often stolen with Fae Charm. I can honestly say I lose very few games to hasted Gobs with that deck, and if anything, probably win more >because< the opponent dropped a hasted gob, than lose to it.

ShawnThorn

Yeah Petrice stops gobble-vive dead, but not many decks can give dust out to enemy creatures.

Ash Lael

Yeah sorry shawn all of these methods work, plus many more. None are "after the damage is done" except fae and that's really the best response possible.

Charge removal - take charges away from revival, kill the 4 mana creature.

Corpse removal - Most cards of this nature are weak, yes, but at least five heroes come with it built in and petrice stops them from appearing in the first place.

Pacify and timid - use it on the 4 mana creature so you don't have to kill it, not the hasted gobble. Fae combatant also works.

Disintegrate shouldn't be your only way to deal with the threat but it's a good one that should be in most decks anyway.

Also you can use cards like delay, dryad of the watch, or mundane to stop the revived creature from having haste (good whether it's a goblin or anything else). Powerless stops them from getting the ability charged up.

This is a strong combo but it's not one that requires specific counters. It is beaten by a range of heroes and cards that are useful in a wide variety of situations. A nerf would be a very poor idea.

Sarastro

actually mundane doesn't work since haste is given after the creature has entered, but otherwise very good examples, not to mention using your own abilities wisely

Sarastro

seems obvious from reading this thread that jorma is very well balanced and most people like her

IcarusRebel

+1 I run Jorma and find her very balanced

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Yea Jorma is fine. It's just the epic guild players that are throwing a fit because they don't like that her mech defense can beat them every now and then.

4thfalco
4thfalco's picture

jorma defences are the easier for their predictability. idek why mine is still working

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

Just jumping in here.

Since Dravkas was changed, Jorma has jumped from third most used, to the most used hero - which was expected. Her PVP win rate is about average for a good hero - 52% or so.

There are no plans to change Jorma one bit. She's at the power level she should be at.

That said, there are some very cool new tools to deal with a hasty meta in the new set. Stay tuned.

Dewellz

I like the actual power of Jorma, but I cant say the same about other heroes. Compare 3 charges invoke fury with calm, entagle, stun shot or dispel. Invoke fury needs an allied creature to work, you can use it most of the time, but not always, the other abilities needs help from your oponent deck, and are mostly useless against creatureless decks, so they need a buff, insted of nerfing Jorma.

DiarrheamazinG

I still do and always have thought Jorma was just a pinch OP since they nerfed Drav and Noran. And it's no surprise that she's the top played hero now.

It's funny to me that the "Too many people are using them and it's hurting the variety of the game" argument gets used to support so many nerfs. Yet everyone is running Jorma and suddenly that argument is totally forgotten.

I think the thing is, is that Jorma IS on the lower end of OP. But with so many fanboys, no one can really bring themselves to admit it.

Unlike other strong decks like QDC and EBA. Despite what anyone says, there's really nothing that TOTALLY stops Jorma. You can run a few Ceasefire, Echo Blasts, Armor guys and Demonic Armor and probably never lose a game against QDC.

Yet you could build a 40 card deck, intended only to play against Jorma. And Jorma would still probably be able to take it 30-40% of the time.

Delay is cute, but let's be real, it completely sucks in any scenario that involves them doing anything other than playing a haste guy. And it still doesn't do a thing against Alchemy Jorma. Same with Dryad Of The Watch.

Disintergrate helps, but still has a hard time getting rid of stuff like DBR, Brewmasters, Infiltrators that got too big, Skullcrusher, Blessed Champs whatever else they might run with more than 2 def.

Fae Charm IMO is one of the worst answers. It's just too situational. Sure it's great if you grab that Hound, Infiltrator or Scav Gob. But it's useless when they're just stomping you with all the stuff mentioned above.

Nothing in the new set REALLY helps against Jorma. The anti-ele guy doesn't do crap. Bleed is cute, but Jorma still has tons of ways around it. And the Circlet can only do much and still doesn't do a thing against all their Alchemy stuff.

Jorma has a way around anything that could stop it. You can improve your chances against Jorma, but more so than any other style of deck, Jorma just seems like it could come back from or work around ANYTHING.

I don't think Jorma needs to be nerfed into the ground like they did with Drav and Noran. But just pulled back a teeeeny bit.

I think a perfect nerf for Jorma would be to remove the immobile from its 2nd ability( 2 damage AND removing resist is enough) and to bump Furious Revival up to 6. This would put it in line with the other heroes which, let's be real here, are nowhere near her power level. 52% win-rate or not, doesn't change the fact that she's pretty clearly stronger than everyone else.

As much as I hate Jorma, I concede she's not like obviously OP. But if the sort of power level were going for, is a place where even Scrollmaker and the already nerfed Empower are considered OP. Than something like Jorma where it's at now, has no business in this game. We can't keep nerfing everything around Jorma and refusing to even consider touching Jorma itself.

Or if we're all gonna agree to never touch Jorma or anything Jorma runs. Then let's quit with the nerfing and start buffing other heroes to Jorma's level.

mmabistra
mmabistra's picture

I cant agree with you at anything in your comment.Jorma is ok and she can be stop,especially with new cards.LA got so much new cards that are great against haste and dark alliance.She is weaker than ever.Not because she is not good hero,just because there are answers for Jormas attacks.

DiarrheamazinG

What are these answers though? And how does Jorma not have a ton of ways around them?

And again, I really don't think Jorma is specifically "OP". As much as Jorma is just leagues beyond pretty much every hero available now.

Keep in mind we're talking about a game that wants to nerf Scrollmaker, Fae Paragon, and Empower. A game where Realm Crusher (a semi-decent answer to Jorma aggro actually) is considered OP.

If that's the power level we're going for. Why is Jorma always exempt from any nerf consideration?

We're scared of a 2 casting 1/1 that draws a card and replaces it's cost and a VERY situational pump spell that pretty much requires you to build your whole deck around it.

But a hero that could end the game on turn 3 without any need for some combo and put you in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario (a scenario that was used to argue in favour of nerfing other things) with furious revival on turn 4-5 by making it so that you either die to the creature that's already out or die to the creature that's it's gonna revival into if you're not playing the right hero and/or don't have a disintergrate. That's somehow not even taken into consideration as something we should put "on watch".

So again, I don't really think Jorma is overwhelmingly broken or anything. But it's kinda ridiculous to me that so many people are willing to support every nerf they see, as long as it doesn't effect Jorma. You can't keep bringing the power level of the game down and nerfing cards that help control and inspire strong decks other than Jorma aggro and expect the game to be "balanced". The devs themselves admit that Jorma is the most used hero now. What's gonna happen when we keep letting Jorma go unchecked and nerf everything else?

You either have to drop the bias and consider nerfing Jorma. Or at least bring the other heroes up to Jormas level. Again, how come when we're talking about Jorma the whole "Too many people are using it and it's taking away from the variety of the game" argument just gets thrown out the window?

4thfalco
4thfalco's picture

petrice and belnir are kinda epic now.... uunys has always smashed face. new heroes coming. forget about it ;))

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Belnir's first auto killed most of the stall decks. Really would like to see cleanse cards be relevant again.

mmabistra
mmabistra's picture

Well,you got to know i dont use Jorma at all.If i am willing to use aggro deck i use Amarus.So,not a Jorma fan.Like you said,she is the most used hero,so i face her a lot.I use Petrice a lot and she has all the answers against Jorma.There are some good mystical and holy cards that goes good against her like illuminate,soldier of light,circlet of wisdom,woodland sentienel,fae paragon,rais the guards.I think that these cards are good against her.Amarus is good against her too.Corpse removal is the most important imo.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Win rates are a much stronger indicator than usage as to the raw power level of a hero. With cards you don't have that data. Jorma certainly hasn't been doing doing all that much on the standard tourny scene and at 52% she is far from dominant. If other hero's aren't performing up to that 50/50 marker it seems to me that they need to be moved up to her level not the other way around.

On a side note I pushed hard not to slow her revival because I felt it would destroy her aggro game. Too many other hero's and decks get too comfortable on turn 5-6.

Dewellz

I support removing the immobile from her second ability, but Furious Revival should stay as it is now. Undertow is like a super entagle so removing the immobile sounds fine to me. On the other hand Furious Revival is not so good, against mill decks or if you use dirty fuel too much, you can run out of creatures to bring back or you will revive the wrong one, so I dont think it needs a nerf.

gwendard

yes you play skull and gob, revive etc...it's finish

Ozy
Ozy's picture

run 2 illuminate in your guild offense
it ruins jormas revives and amaurus she definatly isnt op

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

Circlet of Wisdom + Woodland Sentinel do a heck of a job giving Jorma fits.

Just expanding on what Dr. B said, taking a snapshot from last October, when Dravkas ruled supreme, he appeared in 58% of Top 100 Standard Arena PVP matches and had a win rate of 61%. In the most recent snapshot Jorma (who is at the top) appeared in just 34% of the matches and had a win rate of 49% (she fluctuates between 49 and 52%).

Now I have been watching the paid Standard tournaments and I'm still seeing significant success with Jorma, through a number of different builds (I particularly like the All-6 into Dark Spectre design), but looking at the competition, I'm seeing very little anti-haste.

If Jorma is top of the heap right now, it is by a very small margin.

And in Limited (just in case you're interested) she's no longer the top dog. That would now go to a certain dragon...

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Hey Karl would you be so kind as to give us some data on regarding the win rates of the other hero's? I'm really interested to see how everyone is holding up.

TomKat
TomKat's picture

+1. The more data, the better ;) It would give us better picture of who may need buff/nerf.

Sarastro

interestingly it would also give a better picture of what heroes are best understood and the easiest to build a deck with, contra what heroes do not have enough obvious card builds to support their abilities and are difficult to master

TomKat
TomKat's picture

Yup, especially if these data were sorted - usage/wins overall, among top 50 standard, top 50 limited, new players, tourneys etc.

DiarrheamazinG

The thing is though, Circlet and Sentinal really don't do much to hurt Jorma.

I mean, it can be a minor inconvenience. But as you've said yourself, there's a number of different builds. Jorma is just way to versatile to have any card or cards that can give it any significant problem. Anti-haste doesn't stop Shaman builds, Skullcrushers, Blessed Champs, Alch Guys, etc.... And Woodland more or less faces the same problem.

I know I'd never be able to convince anyone that Jorma needs a slight nerf. But just wanted to point out that these "answers" people are suggesting don't really work as well as people think.

MightyFox

Personally, I feel Jorma as an agro centric character is fine. I also think she's played as much as she is because she's excessively hyped to new players and is fairly easy to build a simple agro deck around, even if it isn't going to be top tier Gobbles, Hell Hound based.

Some of the other heroes are powerful as well, but are harder to build good decks around. Groven and Alisten for example have skills that specifically benefit high cost cards. You could use Groven in a low cost creature deck, but his skills would be less effective for it. Other heroes such as Petrice and Belnir have universal utility and so see play more often. I don't think its an indicator of how good the hero is, just how useful others think they are with their current decks.

mmabistra
mmabistra's picture

I think Groven is great with low cost crature deck.

Sarastro

agreed

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Yea that has always been the case. Jorma isn't so much the strongest but the easiest hero to build a strong deck for.

Ozy
Ozy's picture

this is completly true. She has the easiest deck for a new player to build without spending a ton of cash and grinding for days. We dont want to give them everythign for free but the wall they run into after core is very staggering

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

I do want players to know that I am not against dealing with Jorma. I had planned to move Furious Revival from 6 to 7, but was convinced otherwise. As Furious Revival is the "core" of Jorma (as seen by so many of her deck designs), perhaps it is worth neutering one of her other abilities - like remove the "lose resist" and "becomes immobile" from Undertow. Then her deck build remains untouched, but her built in removal becomes a little less powerful.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Yet why would we do that based simply because some people feel like she is too strong when the data clearly doesn't support that conclusion.

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

Fair point.

JosephMagnus

Like ive been saying for some time: Jorma isnt OP. She is legendary tier in my ratings, and so are othere heroes.

She is only seen more then we want because:

a) majority of players like fast games, its better for farming and less boring;

b) We have only 3 aggro heroes in this game (Jorma, Amorya and Amarus), and other 2 where his build allows some fast decks (Crutomist and Grovenhold). Jorma is the standout between them.

So, what im saying is that i prefer buffing other aggro heroes rather than nerfing the best one,or else we will fall in a even slower meta.

Sarastro

well said, all of it. I for one use Jorma for gw def or whenever I don't want to spend too much time on arena/gw offense.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Not really I Jorma player, but I don't think she needs a nerf, especially on her Undertow. Nerfing it would mean Akatril's 4th charge would become simply better in every sense. If you are set on nerfing her, than a slight adjustment on her starting mana (from 4 to 3 + 1hp) should be enough to slow her down a bit in the start, although at this point she has a pretty defined identity.