Time to buff heroes

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Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture
Time to buff heroes

I made this post on the beta forums. I'm happy to get feedback and more suggestions. I'd like a nice, loud thread to get Fred's attention. Do YOU think this is needed? Needed urgently?

The meta is stale. Some heroes are unusable / underpowered.

Rather than suggest nerfs, lets talk about buffs.

Guild war top tier: Noran/Jorma/Olfaan on D. Noran and Drav on D. Occasional UUnys on attack.

Heroes in bad need of a buff:
Abaddon. He has 2 dead abilities vs creatureless decks. Suggestion:

5 charge life steal gets two buffs, reads:
Enemy target loses dust and you steal two health from it.

Thus it can now target enemy hero (for creatureless) and it leaves more corpses for your ult

Ult gets two buffs, now reads

Revive target corpse into a random ally spot.

Can target ally corpse, and since it goes into a random spot, you won't have to move a creature, losing an attack - or remove an ally corpse to steal.

These two changes would help. A lot.

Ravinova she was nerfed out of the meta. Undo the change from 16/2 to 14/3.

Put her 5-charge ability at 4 charges. Put her manufacture at 5 charges and allow it to target any ally card. Have her ult STEAL three charges and gain mana for each.

Grovenhold His war-march ability makes him a 1-hit wonderboy, making for 1-dimensional play. Put him on the 3/4/5 schedule to speed him up.
3 charge - crush mortal - seems fine
4 charge - war march: Target creature deals its attack to opposing creature. If no opposing creature, gains +1 attack.
5 charge - his ult.

Akatril
4 charge - 2 piercing damage to target creature. 5 if a token OR UNDEAD
5 charge - gains +1 attack, flying AND BLESSED 2
6 charge to remove the corpse requirement but keep the benefit
REMOVE ALL ALLY CORPSES, THEN summon a 3/3 angel WITH MANA COST 4 in a random ally spot.

Might move it to 7 charges and make it a 4/4 with cost 5.

If fighting akatril, I'm always keeping a tribute to the gods in hand if I can for that eventual 0 cost angel.

More later, but lets buff the bad ones!!!

4thfalco
4thfalco's picture

I am far too sleepy to post an in depth comment at present (I'll get to that later), though I am sure that we are in desperate need of some hero BUFFS because let's be honest; nerfing everyone to Arcanos' standards to keep balance would suck. Hard. I personally have more fun when balance is attained by having everything OP as compared to having everything UP :p

IMO this would be the priority for heroes that need buffs to be a real part of competitive play:

Big buff:

Arcanos
Olfaan
Abaddon
Akatril
Shadow
Alisten

Little buff:

Belnir
Wiloryn
Ravinova
Grovenhold (can already do well but y'know he's still pretty meh)
Wilrius
Petrice
Crutomist

Do note that by big buff I don't necessarily mean a straight power surge, just more changes. The little buff list is heroes I believe only need something little to be truly playable.
Any hero not listed is fine, with the exception of Amorya and Amarus - Amorya because she's the nub/starter hero, she's perfectly vanilla - Amarus because idek what to say about him. So underrated yet totally not top tier. He's the biggest case of borderline I've ever seen xD
This is all my personal opinion and probably reflects very little reality :p

Also it may be worth bearing in mind that while it is without doubt that some tweaks are needed, buffs won't necessarily bring any of them into use; they will still be susceptible to power shifts based on the current meta just like any card.

Last point for now: I think that Ravinova needs to be very, very carefully thought about as she could so easily be pushed into the 'NU WAII DAS OP' bracket.

hopeprevails
hopeprevails's picture

AGREED. BUFFS NEEDED. Current meta is heck of stale. I can't do anything with most of the heroes unless I want to lose fights. I like all your buff ideas. Only one change, though. I really like Akatril's current ult for removing Jorma corpses.

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

If it would be better as "remove all corpses, then..." rather than "remove all ally corpses, then..." I would go along with that.
I had thought it was stronger leaving the corpses on the enemy side, but it depends on whether you are against Jorma, or Tenacious D or Gobs, etc, where you want to remove enemy corpses.

whade
whade's picture

Having several ally corpses at once is hella infrequent, while losing the ability to remove enemy revivers (Phoenix, Gob Hog, Jorma etc.) in a meta so heavy with them would be a blow.

Your "suggestion" is NERF, Grrw.

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

OK, but Remove all corpses, then... is a buff, since it no longer requires a corpse to target.

whade
whade's picture

If it targets enemy corpses too, then you again lose an advantage when you could attack from a corpse blocked spot.
Sorry...

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

This dialogue went:
Me: We should remove the corpse requirement. We'll leave the benifit of removing ally corpses to give the bonus

You: You need to remove enemy corpses too, as enemy corpses are really bad for you

Me: I don't have a strong opinion about it, but it could remove all corpses instead

You: You can't do that, as enemy corpses are really bad for the enemy.

Me: Huh?

But, if we must have it both ways:

Remove all ally corpses. All enemy corpses become 1/1 peasant corpses. Then...

whade
whade's picture

Just stop trying to fix what's not broken, is all I was suggesting. You get what I'm saying, right? Targeted hero corpse removal is good. Removing enemy corpses is otherwise bad. Ergo, just stop trying to replace what works with a remove-all corpses power (ally or ally/enemy) when that would have the reverse effect.

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

A power that you can't use is very bad. Even worse on a hero that needs a buff. So it is a broken power.

whade
whade's picture

What the heck does "can't use" mean? What can't you use?
The change you suggested is weaker than the original, what can't you understand about what I said? :o

Let's stop now. -_- Idk what's why you're like this but this is turning silly quick.

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

If there is no corpse, no angel. That needs to change. Thats why you can't use the ability, it sits idle too often.

And how is making your opponents corpses into 1/1 peasant corpses and removing all your corpses worse than the original? That is buffed on both sides!

whade
whade's picture

That makes as much sense at looking at Jorma and saying "If there is no corpse then there is no Haste creature...That needs to change!" -Do you even play the hero? :p
Sits idly? Never in the months I've been an Akatril player did I ever have a problem procuring a corpse by the 6th turn. Let me teach you how to play Akatril some time if something as simple as having a corpse on the Xth turn is a problem 'cause then you're doing something wrong.

I mean, even on the off chance that you fail to to prepare a high-level threat to play on the 5th turn, AND any removal in your hand by the 6th turn, you've got a built-in Justice Strike to help there. And if you used Embrace on the previous turn, then you already gave the enemy a +1 Flying threat to destroy.)

Some examples I used on the 5th in today's matches: Erratic Werewolf, Mana Sprite, Thunder Cat, Charge Thief. All are creatures the opponent really wants dead quick before they can do more damage.

If they kill it, you revive it and get a large attacker - if they don't the card you played will stay in the game, it's a win-win.
(You can exploit this with other card that are central to your strategy that you want to stay in play.)

The fact that the enemy may not play an attacker on the 5th turn, or may or may not remove a threat you play on the 5th, trying to avoid that you can turn it into an angel, is a GOOD thing.
If the game was just X damage to A hero, Y damage B hero, repeat until one wins, it'd be boring.
There have to be steps in between where the opponent can try to interfere. But the fact that they have a chance to interfere also means that you can force them to tie up their resources as they try to prepare to thwart you, so crazy as it seems, your known disadvantage is an advantage - for you.
If they don't play any creatures on the 5th turn for example, because they see you have a loaded Strike and think you may have another removal in hand - what an advantage!

The point is that the key to an exciting game is these kind of mind games, and tryong to out-manouver the other player. There's gotta be player interaction.

You may have forgotten, but there was a time where the Angel was just a default 6th turn summon ability, and it was slightly OP plus boring. It's just, save up a card by the 6th turn.

What do you offer in exchange? Some sort of weird idea that removing all ally corpses is a significant boost. But ho even plays with a full board, with more than 2 creatures anymore?
It could be a help if Akatril was a hero who wants her creatures to stick to the board and needs to have her slots constantly filled up for maff buffs, WHICH IS WHY BELNIR HAS JUST THIS KIND OF ABILTIY too.

About your last sugestion (although now you're changing the argument on me), yeah, it's ok. It is inelegant, not a very big advantage plus it's strategically stale. But yeah. it's "balanced". :/

Now don't get me wrong. There are many things you could do with Akatril. (Though there is a basic flaw in your whole approach in this thread because when a dozen heroes are doing fine but outdone by 2-3 and less than a dozen combo decks, you think dragging the whole meta and all the heroes to the level of those OP decks is the solution rather than the other way around- I'm so glad the devs are smarter than you and realize this.)

It's just that removing multiple corpses on one turn is not that ability, and I wanted to point that out.

Long post is long. :D We talked so much about such a simple thing. I hope you don't hate me for it, you know I love you.

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

I'm skipping most of this, as the first part was really hostile and insulting. I've played at least 1000 games with her. She is weak. I have had MANY MANY MANY games where I didn't have a corpse available on turn 6. For some reason, I must play against more creatureless / suppression decks than you do.

Her ult is pretty weak to begin with, so I don't really see a reason to require a corpse for it to work. Fine if you always have a corpse, it makes no difference.

varchild4
varchild4's picture

I like the 1/1 peasants idea but need a way to spell it so that your angel is sure to have a free space.

Could be: "remove all corps, opponent get a 1/1 peasant for each of his removed corps and you get a 3/3 angel with flight." Or "destroy target corps, you get a 3/3 angel with flight, then transform all other corps in 1/1 peasants."

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

I actually had an idea for Akatril a while back that would make her a mid range life gain hero via adding conditional life gain bonuses to all her current abilities. IE

4 charge - 2 piercing to target creature if target is dark alliance gain 2 life
5 charge - target creature gains +1` and flying if you have fewer creatures than opponent it gains blessed = to its mana cost.
6 charge - Remove target corpse and create a 3/3 angel with mana cost and blessed = to the creatures mana cost.
Would give us a go to hero for those cards with life gain bonuses like Templebound Priestess

Arcanos - I think Arcanos suffers from an identity crisis right now and i would love to push him more firmly into the control spectrum.

4 charge - Deal 2 damage to enemy creature or 1 damage to enemy hero and empty enemy discard pile
5 charge - Drain all opponents mana. Cards opponent plays cost 1 more to cast next turn
6 charge - Target hero takes 2 damage draws 2 cards and gains 3 mana

Wiloryn - She has always been a control hero we just need to nudge her power level a bit

3 charges - Target creature loses all positive status effects an ability and becomes slow
4 charges - Return target card with mana cost 4 or less to its owners hand
6 charges - Put the top card of target hero's discard pile into your hand. You gain 3 mana

Belnir - I always saw belnir as having potential as a mid range tribal hero. His buffs help keep creatures on the field so you can set up tribal synergy with multiple creatures. We need to further push that.

2 charge - Target creature gains 1 hp and loses all negative status effects
4 charge - Remove target corpse ally creatures get +1/1 and become indestructible
5 charge - Ally creatures gain +1/1 armor and regen
(indestructible is just what belnir needs to become more competitive as he currently has big problems with realm crusher)

varchild4
varchild4's picture

Akatril: I like your ideas.. tell me what youthink on those changes based on your suggestion:

4 charge - 2 piercing to target creature if target is dark alliance gain 2 life ( nice cause dark aliance creatures rarely have armor)
5 charge - target creature gains +1att, flying and blessed 2
6 charge (fully buffed :P)- Remove target corpse and create a (½ rounded up/full)* angel with mana cost = to the corp's mana cost, and "life link". Only card now with this kind of ability is the 1/1 Fanged Batling.

*ex: 1 mana corps would make a 1/1
3 = 2/3
5 = 3/5
7 = 4/7

Arcanos: also like the ideas but your mid ability is far over powered. I would only suggest to narrow this one and keep your whole idea :) Would be:

4 charge - Deal 2 damage to enemy creature or 1 damage to enemy hero and empty enemy discard pile
5 charge - Opponent looses half his mana rounded up and cards he plays cost 1 more to cast next turn
6 charge - Target hero takes 2 damage draws 2 cards and gains 3 mana

What is nice is that the 2nd and 3rd abilities can make a combo when played on the same turn.

Belnir:
I hope you are not serious with that indestructable and +1/+1 mid ability :o!! I presume you do not mean indestructible by damage also but i think that If you have problems with a 8 mana cost creature (RC) it is probably cause that guy was not made to be nice to us when cast :P What i wanna say is that many decks and heros have a probleme when RC comes in, you can play your own 8 mana creature (skybreaker is undestro and will become a monster with Belnir especially if that hero get some buffs) or at 5 mana you get Ethernal protector(that is completly undestro), or even Gob Hub, Blessed Champion (or any creatures that has "on enter/on death" abilities), at 4 you have Maelstrom Phoenix, at 3 manacycle wizard.. you can also play Deny and both manacycles and RC will have difficulty to trigger. Seriously, +1/+1 AND indestructable.. to ALL your allies as a mid ability? THe +1/+1 is too much.. with his 1st and 3rd abilities that also give hp the computer will crash on arithmetic :P

May i suggest to simply buff his 2 first abilities to a 2 and 3 turn shedule and add a nice prerequisite to his final ability :)? Looks not OP to me as it's 1st ability only remove one neg status at a time and it's sanctified burial's "remove a corp" prerequisite is there to slow you from using it too ofen and makes it difficult to use on your 3 squares. In the same perspective and till the guy wears a nice armor and looks like capable to incapacitate enemy's weponery flexing his muscles as much as empowering his troops, i would suggest this nice 3rd ability preriquisite, here's what it would like:

2 charge- Target creature gains 1 hp and loses all negative status effects
3 charge- Remove target corpse, ally creatures get +1
5 charge - Destroy target gear, ally creatures gain +1 hp, armor and regen

Remove corps, remove gears, dominate the battlefield.. looks like winner fellow! Maybe we could even call him Super Realm Crusher :P

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

Requiring a gear to target would be a severe nerf to belnir. You could phrase it: Ally creatures gain +1hp/arm/regen, THEN destroy random gear.

I don't understand your problem with indestructible. It is an ability that needs to be out there in more forms. Only a few things destroy creatures, but RC makes Belnir unusable. This fix would solve that.

The problem is that his ult is to protect creatures and is such is almost useless. All these creature suggestions you make that come back from dead remove the benefit of his ult and can be used by anyone. They don't address the problems of Belnir at all.

varchild4
varchild4's picture

Making the ability destroy a random gear as non-prerequisite seems nice too, but it as to be random as you spelled it :) Requiring a gear to target would be the best way to add a more powerful removal thought. I still like my initial idea but both are interresting. Prerequisites would become it's new identity lol :)! Playing him often would make anyone more succesful with womens ;) And that guy as a really shiny armor so playing your own few gears would mostly fit the ambiance ;) It becomes a quasi necessity if you tend to get stucked with your 3 creature slots full of Belnir's usual armored creatures ;)

For the indestroctable: Now the new owners of kindom have declared the intention to buff some heros we really have to be serious so i have to give a firm oppinion on that as i think that +1/+1 is already too much (originally +1/+0) and more importantly too easy and simple.. so combined with undestructible i really get a probleme. Now talking only about indestructable: Sorry RC is supposed to cause you trouble! And i will add other suggestions to help against RC (there is plenty out there). Plus if you want to play some creatures to buff right from start, and HOPE they keep growing, becoming out of control as much as possible, then you have to play a minimum number of creatures in that deck. Then if your 3 spaces are full all those creatures you draw becomes unusable, consider RC to be a buddy made of steel and here to save yourself from complete boredom :P

So, you don't like a one mana Deny that completly incapacitate your whole enemy's deck while not affecting your buffed creatures.. or a minimally 3/4 and most possilbly 4/5 Blessed champion with armor2 and regen2 (great thing is those abiliies are stackable).. possibility to cure it from from any polymorphs or pacifications and get 3 lifes when things turns bad, possibility to remove the corps after RC came in? ..not talking about Skybreaker :o!

..then try Phantom image and you'll get double the monster and garanteed power trip if a RC comes in :P It will copy it with all its buffs and abilities, incuding on enter/on death ones. Also work well with a Phoenix or werewolf.. easily make 6-8 haste damages. works well on your manacycles too. Opponent played a thunder cat.. np your's will win the day. And if you don't already have a decent creature to copy, and opponent do not make you the gift of a fresh RC, any creture you would copy will normally become stronger than your opponent's original one with Belnir. Even those Goblin scout zepps can be neer to awsomness copied and buffed :o! Buffed Master Tutors with double buffed werewolfs are great too, or prophets of the void.. that may possibly jam your opponent's ramping to get out the RC.. why not adding some flamming retributions to calm him more definively..

Talking about spells, you have big and ugly potatoes on the field ready to kill and crush but fear an RC could change all that dreams, and all this between this turn and your next.. I got something for you: introducing Flashback :P! You get yout next attack, 2 mana, 3 charges.. and most probably victoty. Works also if you need one more turn before some epic battle axes finishes you off ;)

You can also try any one life cerature with haste or even faes with resist and play hero's calling on them (tribes 2).. then one of Belnir's +1hp and you get a creture with 4 hp, resist, regen or regen2 and armor or armor2. If your creature has haste it's always ready after an RC, if's it's a fae it will probably trigger a nice response next time opponent makes tries a move.. If the fae is manacycle try empower on it depending on the circontance..

ps. I think i've visited all the ways possible to misspell indestructible :P Devs need to unlock a succes for that as soon as they get on steam!

Talahan
Talahan's picture

haven't been active so much, but have been using akatril lately, would like to see her buffed. here are my thoughts on the matter.

4 charge: already think the skill is good, especially with the 5 against token creatures. wouldn't mind seeing a bonus against dark heroes or creatures, like someone else posted, or even against gear, but the 5 damage against tokens has helped me a lot.
5 charge: my akatril deck uses a mixture of flying and non-flying creatures, so half the time the skill goes to waste (probably due to user-preference than anything else). adding another effect (like blessed) would help in my opinion. alisten 3 charge is flying and intimidate, not much different but 2 charges less.
6 charge decent skill, but half the time sitting around due to no corpses or full field, and also prone to tribute and fae's charm, among several other cards. wouldn't mind seeing summoned creature have a set mana cost greater than 0 (or based on original creature, like divine resurrection), having blessed, or even a rework that says "take a random creature from target player's graveyard and put it in your hand, the next creature you play costs 2 less mana"

all these skills are creature based, so against akatril decks will likely be forced to focus around creature builds, and first and third abilities will be from somewhat to completely useless against creatureless decks. (I believe abaddon also suffers from this)

would like arcanos buffed as well, but have no idea what would be go, since I never use him myself.

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

I particularly like e7's belir changes. That would make Belnir a really fun hero.

SlavoK

Heroes that really need some changes:
Arcanos
Abaddon
Akatril
Alisten
Wiloryn

IcarusRebel

Well with Ganz suggestion here are my bottom five heroes for Standard and Guild

1.Petrice
2. Wilo
3.Belnir
4.Arcanos
5.Alisten

Petrice-Every single one of his/her abilities targets creatures, it is to narrow for usefulness, I think the 3, 4, 5 clock is ok, but i really wish his/her first ability was more useful outside of a dust deck

Wilo-Right now, she is a worse Noran, plan an simple...I suggest a complete rework

Belnir-I actually like Belnir...in Limited. Exalt is nice in that it stops poison and pacify. but again, unless you have creatures on the board, his set is useless, I suggest getting rid of sanctified burial and instead have some form of removal on the same 4 turn clock.

Arcanos-Talk about awesome concept with terrible results, Arcanos could have been really really cool. but he is a combo hero at heart, and his skill set fails at that, first off make his first ability just straight deal 1 damage, simple...or if u have to have the card removal, then make it give him a mana to. His last ability, put it on a 6 turn clock instead of 7, it honestly isn't good enough for a 7 turn clock. his middle, i suggest wording it this way "opponent losses up to 2 mana, you gain the mana lost".

Alisten-Now she is a creature hero, I like the whelp ability and think its on a good clock, but frightful presence sometimes fails to matter bcuz flying doesnt stack, so give a creature with flying frightful presence and all it gets in +1 intimidate. I suggest frightful presence instead give +1 attack and intimidate, let her apply some pressure with it.

varchild4
varchild4's picture

Belnir: removing a corp is a form of removal. I agree exalt is nice. But to add some more, as you suggest, i would simply buff his 2 first abilities to a 2 and 3 turn shedule and add a nice prerequisite to his final ability (a removal) :). Looks not OP to me as exalt only remove one neg status at a time and sanctified burial's "remove a corp" prerequisite is there to slow you from using it too ofen and makes it difficult to use on your 3 squares. In the same perspective and till the guy wears a nice armor and looks like capable to incapacitate enemy's weponery flexing his muscles as much as empowering his troops, i would suggest this nice 3rd ability preriquisite, here's what it would like:

2 charge - Target creature gains 1 hp and loses all negative status effects
3 charge - Remove target corpse, ally creatures get +1
5 charge - Destroy target gear, ally creatures gain +1 hp, armor and regen

Remove corps, remove gears, dominate the battlefield.. looks like winner fellow :P!

Alisten: I agree +1 att and intimidate on the 1st ability could help adding pressure specially with the the whelp. Yet, once again i think the first ability is pretty awesome! Just try her with empower and you'll see ;) For exemple a simple Swiftshot ranger becomes a 5/5 with haste and manacycle wizard becomes a 6/6. If you play, for example, hero's calling (tribes 2) on one of them it's respectively 8/9 and 9/10. This is so satisfying to play :D! It's like a hobbit becoming a legend! Flight helps blocking whilt the eggs or why not a Master tutor in a cleric deck. Playing her gave me the feeling her 2nd and 3rd abilities needed serious revision and maybe complete change.. but maybe i just didn't tryied all i could. Comparing dragon calling with noran's first ability you get the picture pretty easily. The final ability would have to be much better than a 0 mana token that needs a free space. I would suggest something that works with those eggs in one of her slots. Maybe a passive effect would be the best idea. Something like: light alliance ally creatures can't be stolen!! She looks like a lovely mother don't you think ;)?! That would be a real turning point for that hero and would put her on the list of defense heros too! Would also resolve part of the whelp ability probleme. For the rest i would let other players give great ideas but can suggest minimally put the whelp and dragon calling abilities in the same slot. I tought maybe of 5 or more mana cost CARDS cost half mana rouded up for number of ally gears. So it would be:

3 charge- Target creature gets Flying and Intimidate
*passive- light alliance ally creatures can't be stolen!
5 charge- Summon whelp AND 5 more CARDS mana reduction (or any other suggestions)

*If you find that only 2 active abilities seems not sufficient to fully enjoy playing with i can suggest to introduce "level" passive abilities that are stackable :) Those abilities would charge as others but would instead get one more passive ability each time it get fully charged! Not bad idea isn't it?!! :D

Petrice:

I personally find her first ability as the most useful since it gives mana and permits you to remove powerful creatures as Gob Hob or Phoenix and Jorma's Furious revival more effectivly that "remove corps" abilities or disentagrate! If we take Gob Hob for example, since he as 3 hp: if you want to remove it from play with disentegrate that deals 2 damages you firstly have to do some damages before playing the spell, but not more than 3 or you'll kill it.. and if you plan to do the dammage in combat you have to wait one turn. With Petrice's prinkle dust.. you just target the anoying creature as soon as you get the ability, take the mana, and wenever it dies by spell or combat it will not come back. Other hero's/spells that removes corps cannot do the same, if the creature dies by combat on at end of your turn, you won't be able to play the "remove corp" ability. Petrice can. Not as strong as Noran's polymorph but with half the time to load and the mana bonus it may her best ability. I agree with you that all her ability target creatures. It's in a way one more reason that makes her Sprikle Dust useful, as you will want to play creatures, so if they get dust it means that as soon as one dies, one other is ready to go on the field. But in an other way there is something missing indeed.

One suggestion would be to simply add to her final ability that those creatures makes you draw one card on death. That way as long as you play creatures(or spells that gives creatures) you can have the cards and mana to get a response or make strategy around other situations than simply creatures. Here's what i can suggest:

3 charge- target creature get Dust and you get one mana
4 charge- Target creature steals 1 att, if 0 one ability
5 charge- ally creatures get +1 hp, resist AND get "on death draw a card"

or

3 charge- target creature get Dust and you get one mana
*Passive (4 charges stackable)-
level1: 3 or less creatures, on enter-> steal 1 attack, if zero an ability
level2: 4 or more CARDS, on death-> draw one card
level3: cards in your discard pile are automatically reshuffed into your library (..or maybe a greater maximum hand size)
5 charge- Ally creatures get +1 hp and resist

whade
whade's picture

"yeah add generic removal"

Clear proof that you have no idea how this hero works and would end up making every hero the same.

varchild4
varchild4's picture

What do you propose instead of gear removal? Original ideas are welcome :)

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

The ideal we should be working towards is to provide a specific niche for each hero. A hero can be good in terms of raw power but if another hero can pilot the same decks better it will never see play. So we need to try and give each hero a little something that they do better than any other hero.

I developed an idea for Alisten a while back. If I remember right it was

3. Target creature gains flying/intimidate
5. Draw the next creature with mana cost 5+ from deck. 5+ creatures cost 2 less to cast this turn.
6. Target ally creature deals 3 damage to each creature without flying.

Figure the new ult synergies well with flight and can trigger any on attack effects of your creatures.

varchild4
varchild4's picture

I note that this is a pretty nice idea!!! The synergy with flight and the eggs is very interresting! I'M glad the first abilities is not changed in that version. And also that you were conscious the notable upgrade and shifted from one charge the 2nd and 3rd abilities. The first is perfect at 3.

I would only suggest that the 3rd ability would be spelled: "6. Target ally creature deals up to 3 damage to each creature without flying, based on it's power."

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

While that is interesting form a flavor perspective it is a weaker ability and I suspect alisten would still be on the low end even with the changes.

varchild4
varchild4's picture

In an other way i can't imagine a 0/3 egg destroying itself and probably all other creatures on the field by itself.. But a 3/3 dragon (can also be the one in the egg) or any 5+ mana creatures can do, and with the first ability still there you can easily give it flight. Can also be a fury stroker.. with your modification to dragon calling it would be far more fluide for alisten. What i like is that you can't just deal massive damage to all creature and the attack if the creature doen't have a solid thoughness, or it will destroy it self in the process, but you can if you give it Flight :)

A simple mana cycle doing 3 damage to itself and each other creatures would seem unreal to me.. but she could do 1 or 2 and 3 if you can use her allegiant ability, if based on power.. what is perfectly accessible.

As i'm pretty sure i prefer your idea in general than the one i got and posted the other day. And as you fear my modification to your 3rd ability may keep Alisten just under the edge. What would you think about joining forces ;) Here's what the result could be:

3. Target creature gains flying/intimidate and can't be stolen.
5. Draw the next creature with mana cost 5+ from deck. 5+ creatures cost 2 less to cast this turn.
6. Target ally creature deals up to 3 damage to each creature without flying = to it's power. (..and if you need even more power then add "if it's a dragon deals 2 magic damage to ennemy hero")

whade
whade's picture

Alisten does not need a tutor ability, just pack more high mana cost creatures than you do now.
My deck is only 15 5+manas among 40 cards and yet it already does fine.
Tutor abilites change heroes to combo play.

Can't agree with the last one especially. We haven't had board clearers for a while and for a good reason. The ability to sweep the enemy side of the board with that much damage is too much. Such an ability, if ever exists, should at least hit both sides unbiasedly and no built-in dodge; Crutomist would be a good candidate for such.
It may work if you lowered the damage, eg. Dragon's Breath: Target creature deals 1 spell damage to each creature without Flying.

varchild4
varchild4's picture

The 3rd ability we were discussing does affect both sides and, unlike crutomist, would require you have an ally creature to trigger + i proposed to adapt the damage to the power of the creature for a maximum of 3 damages to all non-flying creatures. Would be perfect to hatch thoses eggs and with a dragon it would work just well on the thematic. Great sincronicity with the 1st ability too.

Also the spell that does 3 damages to all non-flying creatures already exist, is ancient, is a common, not relly used in serious battles, and does not require a creature to play; so i guess this ability would not be too strong at all. Considering the opponent can play manacycles i don't think this kind of mass damages is that strong either, plus e797880 also adapted the ability level 6 charges instead of 5 to be fair, and it is also 2 charges levels needed that the one of Crutomis.. also dels phisical damages instead of magical. We are here to buff heros after all :P

whade
whade's picture

Yeah, I guess that could work if it hits both sides + developed for Egg synergy.

Turor ability I'm still very much against, all that ever does is make people develop absurd combo decks and exclude all X-type cards but one. My deck has a nice variety of 5+ mana cards (mostly Ancient), which I'd have to sacrifice to keep up with all the Archmage/Diryam/insert absurd Dravkas creature combo here tutoring decks.

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

I agree. That was the problem we had with old bahamut... he summoned a light alliance creature as his ult. So people would play with only dark alliance and unaligned creatures + Skybreakers. Almost any change will bring with it unintended consequences, but we ought to do our best to not repeat the mistakes of the past.

varchild4
varchild4's picture

Maybe you're right and the tutor ability is restrictive, but do you think it would still be the case even if this one do not bring one creature but incite to play many in one turn?

And what can we propose to ease the use of that ability? Note that there is already a rod in Tribes set that tutor 5+ creature and add some kind of fire breathing to them, but it cost 4 mana so it makes the possibility to play more than one 5+ creature pretty improbable. It never has been used too..

Maybe just change it to: "Draw one card, all 5+ CARDS cost 2 less this turn". Or: "..all ancient and 4+ CARDS cost 1 less this turn". This way it would be possible to play that rod or even essences. I find that seccond idea pretty inclusive :)!

what do you think?

Sarastro

reviving an old post to get an idea down:

Wiloryn's first ability, Dispell - could be target slot, would make it alot more fun and viable against GooG, Dryads and that Fairy everyone plays in limited

Oncus
Oncus's picture

I think that's a great addition to an already good ability, although, really unreliable at times due to the randomness factor and it's specific nature.

cewen

In my opnion, my list of heros which should be buffed, and some suggestions for them:

Abbadon:
1: keep same
2: steals 2 health (maybe 3) IF IT DIES THEY DISCARD A CARD
3: revive card from either discard pile (that's right, any not just top)

Bahamut: (just suggestions for this dude. tbh, should be put back to old way, so can compete with jorma, unnys etc etc, but these are my new ideas for the fella)

1: STEALS 2 charges from enemy hero and gives to charge 2 or 3 (bahamut ofc)
2: destroy ALL creatures mana coast 5 or 6 and lower
3: keep same (or old version, but with an slight nerf before realise.can't remember that though, but knew it was strong)...

Acornos. No idea, just make him good. Cruto: add the immolate to his 1st abilty, that was awesome :D

amerus: keep same, except 2nd abilty, destroy all corpses then make zombie 2-2. GAINS resamble for each corpse destroyed this way (keep other abilities the same)

dravkous:

lower all his charges by 1

not sure about grovenhold and akitril though, would take too much thinking time ;). anyway im sure the peoples comments above can help on those 2. Hero's not mentioned here and simply the hero's I think do not need a buff in anyway.

Amoyra: her 1st abilty, give option to target the creature. Like tourney amoyra :)