New Set and KCCG Improvement

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JosephMagnus
New Set and KCCG Improvement

New set is coming out, so based on the teaser i might make some comments.

- There is a lot of ppl coming into the game. Any time i set my recruitment ON, theres dozens fo dudes applying, most of them in the 100~500 wins range. The number of 1300 rating dudes i face in arena is huge. Its clear to me that what we need is that those guys engage the PVP aspect after they finish campaign. My opinion is that the game is not good enough for a number of ppl. We need to know what they think, what they feel (in fact we did had a survey, but the results weren't used, e.g. Campaign).

- Most people plays this game because its a free version of a MtG-type game. Also, they could play the most famous game, Hearthstone, but they think its too RANDOM and PTW. Yet, for some reason, each set brings us more and more random cards. I question, what makes KCCG special? Why would them play here and not somewhere else?
Then i read this line in blog: "A one mana spell that can put huge creatures into play and ISN'T broken". Is it another AI oriented card for cheap strategies? Isnt time to put the game in a direction where people would feel the more skilled player will win most games? I repeat: people that likes randomness have other games to rely on.
My opinion: i strongly believe random cards should not be printed anymore. At all.

Whats the policy of KCCG for balancing? Example: When Skullcrusher was released, the excuse was: thats the way we want to go for 5 drops. Two sets and a nerf later, he is still the most powerfull non haster 5 drop in the game. More than the epics. Wouldn´t make sense to release other creature in the same level? Its the same for other cards, resulting that they completely dominate the scenario, making the game boring. Ex: Its the same for paragons, where they should be the new direction for tribal cards. Yet, no tribal gets even close to all that bonus crazyness. We, as players, dont really care about the % usage of the cards, but rather how they impact play. Most ppl wont deck 4 Endless Evils cuz they dont own them, but when they draw one, they will banish their hand to play it, and will win most games without effort or skill.

My opinion: if you want to really make a new environment with the core set, that btw i think its great, you will have to nerf some cards from the newer sets, specially because you removed a lot of counters to newer cards, particularly endless evil and Deploy Cannons, that became broken with 2k rules and Olfaan. The limited and standard are just a repetition fo the same decks.

Haste is the problem: no, it is the solution. Ppl likes fast games because it makes the grinding less painful, and they have other things to do. SO they play aggro, that only works with hasters. Yet, every season is dominated by combo decks. But we keep reading Karl state that hasters are the problem.

My opinion: print aggro creatures with more evasion. If i had an army of Wereths and Army of Abyss, in their rare and epic versions, i could play aggro without hasters. Keeping a card like endless evil because its a haster counter is a big mistake.

Give ppl more participation in the testing process. We had an amazing Beta team sans 2 crappy players. I´ll put humility aside here and say i predicted some disastrous decisions a lto of times, posted in forums, and the cards ended up being nerfed. Why not consulting us? We have a set wich the biggest advertisin (WE WILL HAVE THE FIRST LEGENDARY SPELL!) is useless! And i was right in the release, when i asked to change it, and also in the nerf. Birth of a New God is Useless. Junk. Ill be honest here, i never lost to it. Not even once.

My opinion: put the new set´s spoilers in forum for discussion before releasing, or just re-activate the beta team.

Last words: sorry for being so pessimistic lately, i used to be a huge supporter of this game, and i also do what i can to motivate ppl and to tutor new players with my videos. But its not working, and ppl are hugely frustrated. Also, expect the same vets to come here and say a lot of rubbish, because they dont want their fun to be spoiled by decisions that benefits noobs. But, like when i fked my guild by suggestions gw changes when i we were winning it all, i think about the long term heath of this game. Cheers.

JosephMagnus

One last thing: Ill suggest (again) that arena rating gap get reduced to 200 points, so vets dont get matched with noobs after some days into the season. I dont care if that will make less pvps, fighting a dude that plays since 1 months is worse than facing the AI. Feels like smashing your chicken´s eggs before you could eat them.

cewen

I mostly agree on the nerfing of some of the newer cards.

I feel that the main reason the game is not getting many new player (aside from barley any advertisement recently) or keeping a big fan base is because new players come and the game just looks . . .ugly, incomplete (of course, im talking about campaign)

I feel endless evil personally should be 7 mana. I feel that karl is right to some extent about hasters (just look at mind shocker, one of the best Elemental Cards right now) but I agree on more cards like circlet of wisdom for a solution, rather than a barricade of zombies.
However, I do not feel that the production or quality of aggressive cards (like spite demon) or normal cards with haste should be lessened.

I personally, LOVE new kinds of cards with new quirky abilities (like stone of simplicity and BoaNG) and can't wait to see more.

I'll end on this kind of note: I think the game will truly be "kingdoms" when at least 1 of each arch type of each kingdom can use their tribe successfully. E.g: vampires and paragons are a huge success. All we need is Dragons, Angels and Elemets on the same power level.
(not by creating cards like endless evil or RtG, but by creating more creatures, gears and spells which benefit the sub-type)

Mycroft

Good points by Joe and cewen.
Agreed that the issue has been kingdoms balance.
Previous attempts at nerfing cards has been less successful than anticipated, whereas I am intrigued by the idea of making angels and dragons more powerful in order to encourage more diverse gameplay. IMO, undead, elemental and alchemy are already in decent shape.

DiarrheamazinG

While there's not much I can say that I haven't said before. I'll say that this thread and it's responses do really make me lose hope for the future of this game.

Totally no disrespect o the posters, I just don't think we should go even further down the dark tunnel of, "MORE NERFS!".

A card being popular and being "best in slot" doesn't mean that it's broke, it just means it's good. Skullcrusher is fine where it is. What we'd need is just MORE good 5 drops in other kingdoms.

And again, please let's consider that bans exist. Endless Evil may admittedly be a lil too much for 2k. But it's just fine in legacy. Why not just a ban in Limited/Standard rather than a nerf?

In fairness, nerfs are rarely enough for those that support nerfs. Skullcrusher and Deploy Cannons being a perfect example. I personally think DC was fine at 3 and Crusher is fine where it is. But nerf supporters still want further nerfs. It would seem that they wouldn't be content until the cards are made useless and players are forced to stop playing them and play something else instead. This creates the illusion to nerfers that the nerfing worked as they won't be seeing their problem anymore. When in reality the nerf failed and all it did was essentially remove the card from being viable at all. At that point, why couldn't we have just banned it?

Don't wanna go TLDR as usual. But please let's consider bans over nerfs. Especially now that we have formats that lend themselves to working with format specific bans. I'd absolutely rather see 2k have a HUGE ban list than have to constantly worry that any good card I invest in is going to be ruined in the next patch.

JosephMagnus

Plz quote me when i said NERF EVERYTHING

DiarrheamazinG

Well certainly I understand no one is quite literally saying we should literally "nerf everything". I would hope it would have been taken as the hyperbole it is.

I was referring to statements like, "if you want to really make a new environment with the core set, that btw i think its great, you will have to nerf some cards from the newer sets" and Cewen agreeing with it and suggesting EE go to 7.

That aside, my general point was just that we should consider format bans before ALWAYS going straight to nerfs on cards we don't like. Especially now that we have formats where bans would make more sense. And that further nerfing and over reliance on nerfs may just make the problem worse, and work to further limit what players use and create an even more stale environment.

Just please, let's not forget banning is an option.

whade
whade's picture

BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT
Whenever people sit down to have a conversation about cards and the game there's always that one guy who goes "You guyz just want to nerf everything! All nerfs are bad!"

Right now, you are that guy.

They aren't really interested in any balance conversations, they are just afraid of a card they use to win being negatively effected. It's an awful, irresponsible, anti-discussion attitude.
You can't even be bothered to read OP actually said apparently, just wanted to get this in here. Just shut up.

cewen

oops - misplaced :p

DiarrheamazinG

In fairness, I'm ALWAYS that one person. Always have been, always will be. And I'm literally the only person. Literally (and this time I do mean literally) every other player on KCG but me LOVES nerfs and basically plays the game FOR the nerfs. To them, that's what they look forward to. Not new sets, new heroes, but nerfs.

What can I say, I fully understand that I'm fighting an unwinnable battle and there's not really a point to try to be anti-nerf in a game that's based around nerfing. I'm like the one #blacklivesmatter girl at a Klan meeting. Of course no one is gonna agree with me, and that's fair enough.

I might say though, that you (and I mean this with no disrespect) are admittedly on the other extreme and tend to be the one person who suggests to nerf literally (and again, I do mean literally this time) everything. Off hand, I can't remember a card that I've mentioned that you didn't want nerfed.

Thanks though for being rude and saying BS like "shut up" and that I'm "Anti-discussion" when I've said nothing rude and didn't just leave negative comments without any backing behind my opinion. Very classy. If you'll notice you actually added nothing to the conversation or debate with that post ironically enough other than to just rant at me. I mean hell, you're probably not even reading this part and starting angrily typing after you read the first sentence. Just as you did with my original response where you missed the entire thread of me logically explaining why I don't think nerfs are always the right answer.

But I'd expect nothing less from whade. That's just how you are, and that's okay. We're all different.

cewen

Im going to show you how nerfing can be a GOOD thing in general:

QUESTION - If nerfing is such a bad thing that it "remove(s) the card from being viable" (you); how is Raise The Guard right now so popular? It used to be 6 mana too, and also gave (old) indestructible to each summoned creature. Now its at 7 mana and does not give indestructible.

Your logic is; such big changes to a card (or any) should have killed it. But right now it is one of the most used cards in the game (definitely most used holy card)

Other examples: Inverted Hourglass (entire card design changed), Elara, T'rr endor of days, Untouchable, Deploy cannons, Rejuive potion etc etc etc. All popular cards, that people still use.
(The list goes on, and I could give you the evidence easily - Fredric's old dev notes)

All things have a bad side to them, and there have been times when a card is so broken that it needs to have its text change (mostly Quick Draw Cannon and Opus of Thought) - I don't need to explain the reasons for those, but those nerfs were essential. Broken in all formats.

How many players would still be playing today if that combo wasen't changed? from what I've pointed out - "nerfing" (changing a card's mana cost or adjusting the text slightly) is absolutely needed.

Besides: Cards change during development. Why is "nerfing" seen as a crime to you, when you see but not behind the curtains? (if you know what I mean)

Endless Evil is not as bad as Opus Cannon in this case. But 6 mana for 6 creatures is huge, in any format. And a 1 mana increase is a very small change, perfect to keep the card viable.

DiarrheamazinG

Let me clarify that I have never said that literally all nerfs are bad. I disagree with probably about 90% of them. But of course I'd admit there was some that were understandable. Untouchable, Opus Of Thought (although I honestly could have lived with it), T'rror, Exalted Enforcements (waaaaay back in the antic days when it made 2/2s). Maybe even a few more here and that that I'm forgetting.

So sure, I understand that in extreme cases a nerf could be a consideration. What I'm saying is that we too often take it as the ONLY consideration and tend to get pretty trigger happy with it and start to fire the nerf guns as soon as any card so much as just starts showing up in a lot of decks and wins games.

And I do believe that nerfing can itself cause problems, and I think that's something a lot of people have a hard time understanding. Nerfing can limit the amount of cards/answers a person has for situations. This can force players to work with an even more limited pool of cards, which can make the game that much more stale and wind up with players having an even more limited selection of decks to play and play against. As well as the very real effect (and this is already happening) that when you nerf a bunch of cards, now cards that weren't previously scary are now big threats because the power level dropped that much more. Now people will want to nerf those cards as well and the cycle continues and spirals down further.

Take Standard/Limited 2k for example. People always thought Endless Evil was a strong and scary card even before that. But not many people really cried nerf on it. But after playing in an essentially "nerfed" format where their card pool was limited and there was no Realm Crusher or Echo Bolt, or equally strong response to it, suddenly they became terrified of EE and want it nerfed. Same with Deploy Cannons. They're just not all that scary in legacy. And mind you I DO AGREE that something needs to be done about EE in 2k environments. But nerfing isn't the answer. He have bans for a reason, let's make use of them.

That's my main point. Not that nerfing is NEVER the answer but that it's not ALWAYS the answer as so many people here seem to think.

People need to get out of the "I don't like it, NERF IT!" mentality. They need to remember that we have bans for a reason, they need to remember that there's other options and hell there might be answers for the card that's bothering them that have already been printed.

Let's just think before we nerf, that's all. Nerfing is not always the answer. That's all I'm saying.

cewen

I completely understand why you think that nerfing is not the correct way to go, I really do.

But to bring it back around to the original thread topic: Endless evil.
What it essentially does right now is summons 6 creatures, for 6 mana which can both attack and defend.

No matter which format you are in, this card is too strong for its mana cost. Hence why I would especially prefer a nerf to a (just as easy) ban; because a ban won't solve the issue.

I do agree that we should always consider the banning option; an option. But when a card is too powerful in all formats (with arena stats to prove it) then I think a nerf is very valid (like a simple 1+ in mana cost)

The good difference nerfs have above bans; is that not only can they be revoked if nessacerly (just as easy in both im sure) but you get a larger say and can discuss it here with the rest of us :)

Mycroft

Perhaps I was being unclear earlier.

No more nerfs.
STRENGTHEN angels and dragons to create balance.

JosephMagnus

Edit: whatever...

ffarr
ffarr's picture

Randomness is the killer of "professional" card games - any strategic game I'd say.
Mtg has been one of the top card games for so many years because it has never given up on randomness.
I see more and more randomness in kingdoms every day. Random hero abilities, random cards that can summon creatures not even in your deck nor in the format, etc.
This is not the way you develop a strategy game. This is the way you build a slot machine.

DiarrheamazinG

Yeah, I do pretty much agree with that. Randomness is never really much fun and takes away from the "strategy" aspect of the game. Making it so that you either Summoner's Gambit into a crappy 1 drop and totally wasted your time or Gambit into Goog and win on pure luck isn't really what the game should be about.

And don't get me wrong, I even actually kinda like the occasional novelty of playing the coin flip that is Summoner's Gambit. But it's not exactly something I wanna see more of, and especially not in a game where the AI literally can roll the odds against you giving you a better chance at getting crap and roll the odds in it's favour giving it a better chance of dropping a Goog or something else huge.

Although as of yet, AI literally can't play Gambit anyway. But if it could........

And jeeez, if it can play this new random tinker card, I can only imagine the crap it's gonna be pulling of in GWs. It'll be an auto-include in every def. And tbh, I'm not even all that opposed to that, I say let's see what happens. But if it does get too much, I'd argue against AI cheating/rerolling rather than for a nerf.