stall too powerful

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nosher
stall too powerful

Stall decks are becoming dominant in limited. I myself decided to use one and will keep using it until its nerfed somehow or a great new countercard appears.

I think standard has the potential to go the same way to some extent. The problem is partly cos of blessed chalice and partly because of the awful gear removal in kingdoms. And also someone decided to make the rack unplayable except as a sideboard card, if it only took life off the enemy hero the card would actually be maindeckable.

I do not believe its very healthy that one particular deck controls the meta, especially not a stall deck.

P.S. stall decks can immediately remove doomsayer with ascendant purifier, or play a realm crusher/divine wrath to deal with them or any other attempt at aggro. doomsayer is not the answer.

Petrus2

i've spent most of the day today to find a playble balance between a counterdeck to your deck (and a few other like yours) and a deck that keeps having a fair chance at winning against the usual decks in limited, like olfaan haste, arcanos or baha burn and others. the problem there is, partly at least, as you said the lack of either strong or multipurpose gear removal who do not have significant disadvantages. A few examples i'm pretty sure would be mentioned anyway:
Crush the Meek: 4 Mana, Ancient destroy all 2 mana or less cards. Ok. not that bad, you'd think play it and get rid of chalice, right? Actually your right. It does that. but it will kill your 2 mana or less gear and creatures too. and thats where it becomes a bad idea, because either you have to play higher mana cards to avoid having to kill potentially important cards, or you have to account for it, both of which is a great problem in itself. not so much against the stall deck itself, but against every other deck. And before someone tries to tell me:yes, you can try and use crush the meek against other cards, like endless evil, elvish arments and low mana hasters, but mostly its either a waste of mana, since there are too few targets to even get the 4 mana cost crush the meek costs back in, or its killing your own cards too.

Goblin Vandal/Puncture Blast (for the haste/burn decks) Both are 3 mana and kill 1 gear problem is: its 3 mana to kill 1 gear, that ravi will be playing all 4 turns again. i could stand wasting 2 mana to kill one gear, but 3 mana is too much, since it forces you to either bannish 1 card just to play it, have mana gain of any sort, or wait 2 turns to be able to play it. oh yeah some might say vandal can kill more then one: nope. try it and you will see its getting remove instantly. not even giving it 2 health would fix that, you'd need to give it 3 health to make THAT work. thanks 2 mana 2 dmg removal and even creatures that act as removal.Or just thanks poisoned 2 ravi 2nd ability. Another problem i have with both cards is, that its untargetable. some ravis i encountered play both chalice and other low mana gear (like mill gear, more lifegain gear, or thought retrievers... i've seen more then enough there.) and using 3 mana to kill a tought retriever is wasting mana big time. same goes for steel crusher,Tempest and smash to smithereens, just that they are even worse, even if they may have their own unique uses, they are either overprieced (tempest) vastly overprieced for their limited use (smash to...) or untargeted AND overprieced.

"Chalice is a relic! use Relic Hunter!" and do what with it? thanks 2k. no holy cards in my deck, so no use whatsoever for me.and ravi just copies one of the other 4 chalice and goes on. Oh, and its an EPIC. meaning one less Endless evil, Queen of Dragons or Mindshocker. that kills decks.

"uhm, ok. or dissemble.or smelt. you wanted targeted removal, right? use dissemble or smelt!Or Shattering shout." You did read what i wrote about disadvantages? smelt and dissemble are out just because of that. i cannot deal with another 2/2 in addition to whatever my opponent throws at me, and i am definitely NOT giving him extra mana to pump his life even faster. Shattering shout is... ok. yeah, just like that, it is. But it has one problem: its too expensive to deal with many low mana gear. so its of no use against chalice.

Blunderbuss and hammer of the gods, Awakened Elder,Echoblast and Atomic smasher:
lets see... weapon... weapon, creature without indestructable, great spell, aaaaand weapon. Ravi uses Holy and alchemy, so 4 cease fire are a must have. not to mention she has built in gear removal, that kills every gear no matter the cost. so all fancy gear destroying gears could go home and hide in a corner for all the use they have. Not to mention they are all epics, which kills em for limited, because you NEED 2 endless evil or queen of dragons or comparable cards or you suck against all other decks who do use em.

So whats left? Rust? sure you could try, but ravi will either play her own runeword or stall till she can play gear again. not to mention, its a dead card against most other decks.
The rack? gear, weapon, and to top it off it hurts you. bane? sure, another runeword with the same problems as rust.

Why do i write that wall of text? because i'm pissed. And to show i tried a lot of different cards to deal with one deck that becomes more numerous by the day. But hey: the only thing i have to add is: yeah you can put some of the above mentioned cards, use bothar and fight ravi, but you will suck against all other decks. and yeah, i wrote fight, because even while using those you will have like a 50%50 chance to win.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

I haven't played the game for quite a while so don't exactly know what the current meta is, but sounds like something that occurs every once in a while because of the underlying problems with Kingdoms.

While you can shout we need more useful gear removal, I think this won't help Kingdoms become a more balanced game, it just becomes a rock-paper scissors where one card puts you so much behind it's impossible to get back into the game. In other words, it may just create problems for gear decks.

The solution isn't better gear removal, but (and here's nothing new) putting a cap on gears. It will solve a lot of problems, and make gear more easy to balance without worring someone will make 100x copies of it (remember ravi hero's ring?).

But if you don't like drastic changes, ravi could have her first ability changed to only copy creatures (also enemies) since I'm sure a lot of gear cards need to be designed with Ravi copy abuse in mind (and not all can be ancient, like it was the case for stone of simplicity)

nosher

you could have a cap of 4 gears (tokens being exempt from this limitation) no problem.

Pokekid01

Relic hunter isn't as bad as you say, since chalice gives +1 when ANYONE plays a holy card (which makes stall decks extra frustrating as I run a holy deck in Limited). Of course, it still takes up an epic slot.

Also, there is tempor reversal, but that just puts them back to where they started, except they now have 40 HP and you're down 9 mana. And it kills your own, and its epic.

I see what you mean about counterdecks existing but being unplayable against anything but stalls. Rush and mill are the only ways to beat this, and mill is actually rather hard since they often run thought retrievers.

whade
whade's picture

What I don't understand is why you're focused on trying to control all the gears. Why not out-grow/out-rush them? Gears are different from creatures, harder to remove but also slower, often easier to ignore.
I've met some Chalice decks but I don't remember them being a particularly big pain and the only anti cards I run are Goblin and Tempest.
(PS. I think sharing these impressions is great, but me personally, I wonder if the problem isn't with the player approach.)

"Tempest is overpriced"
->Yeah I should stop reading there :p I'm yet to have a single battle where Tempest wasn't a big help. Covering gear, direct damage and creature damage in one card, there's always room for it.
And given how frequently a creature + cheap gear is possible it's almost too good. Almost everyone runs a cheap gear (including Vial of Fire, Deploy etc.) these days.

Petrus2

whade? i think i remember that name. i think you met my approach on ravi stalls decks (the other side of the coin, now i'm trying to see it from the ravi player side, to see if there is anything that can kill it) i have to say my own ravi deck was poorly made, and i lack too many cards to test this efficiently. might be thats why you have the impression those decks are not dangerous. I at least have no chance outrushing a ravideck unless i start with endless evil or mindshocker and my opponent has no immideat counters to it.

yes, tempest IS overprieced in that list. its 4 mana to remove 1 gear. it gets better if you take the other effects into consideration, but the part i was discussion IS overprieced. All in all tempest is a nice card, but it wouldn't help all that much if the opponent has 30+ hp and no creatures on the field but 5 chalice and a bunch of other gears

whade
whade's picture

I don't really see how that logic is reasonable...By that definition isn't every card that isn't pure gear removal "overpriced"?

Did I fight you with Ravi/Petrice?
I think I may have used some Rebounds (+overdraw), and good old beatdown the 2nd time. The versions I saw also heavily relied on Feast/Immortal, so counter rune words could kill them even quicker.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Rush has to stop being the answer for every deck that needs 5+ turns to win.

Petrus2

when it stopps doing that it stopps being playable

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Yeah right. Rush, or haste elemental keeps it's strength even beyond the 10th turn, it doesn't fall at all.

Petrus2

sure, it KEEPS its strength. but you know there are very little combos in rush, meaning it does not get any stronger then before. so most to all stall/ controll decks will become way stronger than rush after a few rounds because they keep building their strength with combos. Thats why rush needs to be able to end encounters quickly

Oncus
Oncus's picture

The situation you described goes the same for mid range decks because stall decks have a lot of control cards. Falling off is not something that's specific to rush, moreover, against mid range rush doesn't fall off but simply finishes off the opponent with a haster or direct damage.

On the other hand rush is can keep up with mid range, can duel other rush and is best at stall. No, rush is definitely not the way to solve problems long term. It's time to solve gear problems permanently. And I don't think the answer is in anti gear cards, but limiting gear slots.

Petrus2

i'm not saying your way is wrong. i'm just saying as it is its bullshit, because we have no decent gear removal, and gear cards made to stall/gain life/combo with those things are too good right now.

lawofthewest

I deal with stall decks in my own way. People playing these are invited to join Alpha_Moon (which doesn't mean that all Alpha_Moon players use stall HP gain chalice decks. Some luckily use Olfaan deploy cannon spam like they ought to. Or Mindshockers. Or Endless Evil.

whade
whade's picture

I can see that Karl added new cards that interpret healing as a 2-for-1 deal (Blessed Chalice, Vial of Tears etc.) ie. where 1 mana would give you 1 damage, the same mana will get you double the healing, which is a fairly common bit of CCG logic (naturally, since only 1 of the two can win you the game, the other (healing) can only delay it), I'm on a fence about how much it is applicable to Kingdoms though, since winning by healing & milling is quite possible in this one.

The problem with Blessed Chalice seems to be that it's exponential, same as the Essence Gears?
and KCCG is usually linear, save for a few gears.

Also, I think your complaint about gear removal is sound for the 2-kingdom limit too now. Not everybody will play Elemental right?

Tower0Bauer

It's not exponential like the Gears.

If you play a holy spell, you gain 1 life per Blessed Chalice is play. If you have 5 in play, you gain 1 life five times.

The gears trigger per essence, so if you have 5 gears that each gain you 5 life, you gain 5 life, 5 times, or 25 life.

whade
whade's picture

PS. I think for KCCG 2x healing isn't so fitting. If it was me I'd have done a "healing triggers effect" deal (1+1 instead of 2x) instead. Like creatures doing something when healed, some gears triggering when hero healed.

Petrus2

revive the topic for fun and giggles. we told everyone stall is too powerfull, but some ppl said no big deal... maybe with the silliness that is the helm they say otherwise? or with the ever increasing number of stupid ravi chalice decks in limited?