Playing multiple accounts in Guild Wars

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SlavoK
Playing multiple accounts in Guild Wars

It's been brought to our attention that Demonic deittes are sharing accounts among themselves which means that one guy fights for more accounts. I ask whats the point to get on top when you get there by cheating? Whats the meaning of guild wars when istead of fighting 15 guys you fight 2 or 3. They took all the fun and teamwork that guild wars were about. It makes me sad and some of our guys are considering leaving cause they feel like the whole meaning of guild wars has been destroyed. I'd say is better to loose with honor than win dirty.

Tower0Bauer

What's worse is the response from Karl.

This was sent to JoeMagnuss in response to this issue and multiple screenshots that confirmed it straight from DD. I am posting it here with permission from him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Joe, we've been incredibly busy try to get these mobile versions out.

The challenge with dealing with this is that there is no way to truly prove it other than reports like this. Tournament cheating and Arena cheating can be clearly seen. Here we have active accounts that are being used by multiple people.

I fully agree with you that it is against the spirit of Guilds, but it isn't inherently against the rules. They still have to win the battles and they aren't manipulating the results. And even if I made it against the rules there would be no way to enforce it, so it wouldn't stop anything.

So feel free to use your top players for multiple wars if that's what it takes. I guess that this is a negative to the drop to 15 battles per war, as no one would want to play multiple 90 battle sets.

Cheers,
Karl.

archa1983

Here is my 2 cents about this:

If a guildmember/friend played the wars on your behalf because you are at work and you are all of the sudden needed, I can understand that this happens. And I know this has happend alot in the past as well.

If however certain players in DD are inactive but their accounts are actively being used by guildmembers to keep up the high score. Then I find this against the spirit of our guildwars system. And I ask Tomkat friendly to stop this from happening. DD is well capable of recruiting new members.

Let's wait to hear from Tomkat if the allogations made by Slavok are true.

TomKat
TomKat's picture

I'm not going to lie - I indeed played with not only my own account vs PA, so it is true.

As for inactive guildmates - players will be ofc always replaced if went inactive.I also stopped using inactive account (was very seldom anyway) - you may have noticed in a war between our guilds that DD had to wait for cashavenger to save the day instead of using it.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

I get Karl's response. This certainly isn't int he spirit of healthy competition but he can't rly enforce those kind of rules.

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

Let me be clear.

1) I was not sent any screenshots. I was given a report, which I accepted on its face value as I know that someone like Joe wouldn't make that up.

2) As I stated, I DO believe that it is against the spirit of Guild Wars. 100%.

3) It is completely unenforceable. There is no way that we can know that whether it is you, your brother, your neighbour or someone across the ocean that is playing on your account. We know that the user name was correct and the password was correct, so you're a valid user of that account.

4) We have never said anything against lending an account to a friend, and to the best of my knowledge, neither did Antic. The issue has always been the manipulation of results. Here the results are all fair, just not how they were imagined to be completed.

5) And if the issue was with my final line, what was I supposed to say? "But don't do it yourself"?

Note that we STRONGLY recommend against giving your password to anyone. Honestly, you've worked hard for your accounts, why risk it by giving the account to someone else?

I am happy to listen to other solutions, but they have to understand the technical limitations of knowing who is on the other side of the screen.

Tower0Bauer

Karl, can't you look at IP addresses?

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

We don't connect IP addresses with accounts. There is nothing in your account data that says "this player plays on this IP". So therefore when you're starting your war battles we don't know if you're on the "right" IP or not, nor can we look up your teammates to see if any of them have used the same IP previously in the war.

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

Hi. I want to jump in here for a minute just about the tone and vocabulary.

I can say without reservation that if you are not violating any rules or terms of service you are not cheating. Playing on someone else's account doesn't violate the rules of guilds as set out. I'd have to dive into the ToS to make an evaluation there.

I think it would be more fair to call the behavior "Unsportsmanlike" as it is trying to gain an edge in competition that other competitors might consider unethical - but does not violate the rules of the competition.

Please lets stop calling it cheating. The only person really able to make that determination is Karl.

Thanks.

JosephMagnus

Running WantonCynic account while he is inactive in the game IS cheating, regardless of what you think. And yes, i´ve asked TomKat to stop this abuse. I know they do it for at least 12 months, but i thought it was only in special ocasions.

But last week CallmeGod told he played FIVE accounts from guys that were on trips or inactive. It is CHEATING, also regardless of your opinion.

If PA have five inactives (and it will on Xmas), PA loses. With honor. Same happened with Alpha, honored oponents.

When we were at the buzzer and some1 was inactive, i had to bother approaching him and trying to motivate/kick him. And suck up the fact that i lost regardless of our good scores. DD doesnt have the same problem.

When our good players stopped playing, we busted our asses off to replace them. When we had bad scorers, we bothered recording videos to teach them how to improve. If you share accounts, you dont need any of that.

I have nothing personal against Karl, but if he claims he cant do anything, than this is not competition, and im not interested anymore. I will rejoin PA again when i have time to chat with my friends. Love them, strong, loyal and honored players.

TomKat wont change it cuz he claims it´s fair cuz our defenses also cheat lol.

http://pasteboard.co/2OVhmeNk.png
http://pasteboard.co/2OVt8vUE.png
http://pasteboard.co/2OVt8vUE.png
http://pasteboard.co/2OVKJvxo.png

TomKat
TomKat's picture

Just for the record - remark about "cheating PA defs" was because I wanted to address that I understand your feelings and didn't find anything smart to say at that moment.I didn't intend to say "we shared accounts because of your defs".I should have said that we had lost some wars in the past because other guilds shared accounts (yeah, it happened) but whatever.And sorry, archa, that I accused you falsely of playing at Rhystic's account vs us.I was wrong.

Anyway, me and PA created a toxic guild wars environment in last days.It is a time for me to leave then and I hope it will cleanse it.Archa's idea - I could have signed it but any time one of Demonic would make a good score it would still be seen as done by me by some players if I stayed.I dont want it.

I wanna apologize to every guild and every player I harmed with my behaviour.Also - sharing accounts was on a level of several players, not a guild.We didnt have a policy "you can join us but give us your password".

Gl to all guild wars players and thx for all battles in the past

Rosa_Walka
Rosa_Walka's picture

First Hello everyone.
Frankly, I need to let off steam and talk that PA does not admit that any guild without being Alpha and TAM may be best to them...
Hey! Times have changed ... we were two years to reach the first place in the epic league, and it was not through shortcuts, work hard for it all. Also interesting that PA only started complaining when they lost three wars in a row for us. The other seasons when they were earning not say anything.

Let's go back a bit ... Brutika / Champs played in PA long time and no one from DD say anything. Nousername played with the alt UC nobody was manifested. JOE we didnt care that u got account from ashlael, what can be seen as unsporty too, …Now when PA is threatened to lose the title of best guild, they start to cry…

Yes we have players who only play vs PA and Alpha (I’m an example) .... Neither is there any rule saying whether you can play with the account of a friend. In addition, even if we throw with the account of others, we need to WIN battles anyway. Not considered cheating since the effort is the same as you are playing on your own. We are not creating shortcuts to win, we win on merit. I think PA should worry about improving their attacks and their defenses instead of preoccupy with DD

Advice to PA:
Play more and complain less. Make better scores against us that you guys will win is simple.
Victories are made of outcomes rather than unsubstantiated claims.

JosephMagnus

OK little grasshopper, i will have to tear your arguments down one by one...

"Frankly, I need to let off steam and talk that PA does not admit that any guild without being Alpha and TAM may be best to them..."

I have congratulated you guys for every single title you won. Quote me complaining at least a single time i lost in a fair way and this is an argument.

"Hey! Times have changed ... we were two years to reach the first place in the epic league, and it was not through shortcuts, work hard for it all. Also interesting that PA only started complaining when they lost three wars in a row for us. The other seasons when they were earning not say anything."

In fact we have been losing to you guys before nouser joined you, that was probably MAY. Out of the last 9 seasons, we lost 3 to you guys, and that was our best form EVER. I knew you had Tom´s password since last christmas. I only started complaining when CALLME GOD TOLD ME HE PLAYED 5 INNACTIVE ACCOUNTS IN A SINGLE WAR. THEN WE FOLLOWED UP AND TOM WAS PLAYING A INACTIVE WANTON.

"Let's go back a bit ... Brutika / Champs played in PA long time and no one from DD say anything. Nousername played with the alt UC nobody was manifested. JOE we didnt care that u got account from ashlael, what can be seen as unsporty too, …Now when PA is threatened to lose the title of best guild, they start to cry…"

Brutika/Champs never EVER scored top 10 both. It was an alt account, that have the clear drawback of requiring double grinding. Brutika could barely do good scores by himself, nvm with 2 acc. We used champs mostly cuz of the known bug of losing attacks when a guildie leaves.

Nouser/LionKing- WTF does it have to do with it? Its was other guild, that never threatened DD, in a time DD rarely threatened us????? Also, an alt account, much much weaker than nouse....

Joe/AshLael- please explain why was that unfair? The guy quit playing because his account was poor and not on par with the best ones after LA release... he gave me it with 1 box of LA bought... i only accepted cuz it had almost completed from RISE and older sets... i let go of my old acc and spent my time developing it... he chose me simply cuz i was king of the guild he created, so he rewarded me for my passion and loyalty for his cause. It can be only unfair in your twisted view.

"Yes we have players who only play vs PA and Alpha (I’m an example) .... Neither is there any rule saying whether you can play with the account of a friend. In addition, even if we throw with the account of others, we need to WIN battles anyway. Not considered cheating since the effort is the same as you are playing on your own. We are not creating shortcuts to win, we win on merit. I think PA should worry about improving their attacks and their defenses instead of preoccupy with DD

Advice to PA:
Play more and complain less. Make better scores against us that you guys will win is simple.
Victories are made of outcomes rather than unsubstantiated claims."

Hello??? We won last season playboy..... pulling the "man up sore loser" argument is well expected from a leader of a cheater guild that have no valid arguments.

Good news: you wont have to bother with this sore lose anymore, brazilian friend. Ill be buried deep down on bronze, this type of competition brings no interest for me...

cewen

Irony overdose . . .irony overdoes . . .

I remember you nicking a strong alt, for you or your wife or whatever to play the game. Irony . .

But seriously, your attacking him because of such a small thing like this? TomKat apologised, and might even leave his own guild and your STILL tearing him apart??

"Anyway, me and PA created a toxic guild wars environment in last days. It is a time for me to leave then and I hope it will cleanse it" - TomKat (#11)

Nouser didn't even go and destroy guilds. Perhaps he was right, and "PA" ARE power-hungry douches that will destroy any guild that stands in the way of more gems . . .

This forum thread is now equivalence of kicking a dead man on the ground whilst he has 5 bullets in his guts and begging for mercy. Christ . . .

TomKat has apologised, and PA are still trolling. I very strongly urge that this forum post gets locked and even removed to any forum mods about or Karl.

Earthconstruct

Advice to DD:
Recruit more and share member account less, lol. You know what's simple? Do your own wars. Only 15 wars and still your king do 45.

Victories are made of outcomes rather than unsubstantiated claims. That's true, your victory is substantiated through sharing member accounts amongst your members. You know what's stupid there, you substantiated by telling your opponent guild that you share accounts. Dang!

Earthconstruct

Tomkat - " I also stopped using inactive account (was very seldom anyway)- you may have noticed in a war between our guilds that DD had to wait for cashavenger to save the day instead of using it"

You are a JOKE, you know that? It is not how seldom you use inactive accts or you had to wait for someone. You have an unfair advantage that you can use anytime when push comes to shove.

You have been doing this for a long time now, that's the problem. How many guilds have dropped out of epic, and still you stayed and rise up? Hows that huh? Yeah, you deserve to be called your guild name.

It never occurred to me to join your guild even how hard you recruit me. I know there's something wrong in your guild from the very start.

1. Having 2 guilds, one in gold and one in epic. After epic guild lost, every DD member will jump to gold guild. Of course they will top gold tier to get maximum gems. Then jump back again.

2. Being dumb about Wantoncynic. I'll say this again Wanton is the worst cheater, that was never reprimanded. Rhystic has 2 valid accounts. Wanton has multi new accounts who cheated again just using an old noob account.

3. Account Sharing. Yeah, Multiples of it. Many members can access many accounts of your guildmates.

You wanna be a joke by joining them? Certainly, I will not. I can't respect a KING who does all of that.

TomKat
TomKat's picture

Yeah, I'm glad you joined PA, not us, too.

1.Are you talking about Demonic and empty? When we got Epic, empty was going towards Bronze.In 3 months we made into top4 and never left it, so why would we want to make a plan to jump all players between top4 Epic guild and a Gold guild?

2.a)I know I'm dumb - you dont need to remind me about it
b)Wanton's multiaccounting in tourneys precedes his joining Demonic.He joined us in end of December and at the same time he was warned by SuperNinja to stop cheating in tourneys.And if you hate us for not kicking him for his past, I'd like to remind that HC and PA tried to recruit him too.

3)not many, not many

Earthconstruct

GANZ and the rest of the team,

We all know a guilds game like every other online games is all about activity, right? I get the reason why ANTIC allowed 15 members in a guild but the guild score will only account for the top 10 scorers of that guild.

It may not be written in the rules but the mere fact that this 10 scorer feature is implemented, you don't want account sharing among guild members. Otherwise, just lessen 15 members to 10 only.

On another note, I am kinda surprised about your message. You were too open, I think. I was expecting like "you will look into this kind of thing" and will be reserved. But apparently, you mention to public what your system can and can't do. Now every guild can take advantage of this. Or other may think of other unsportmanlike activities.

shaqair

What goes around comes around.

At one point PA was carrying a blatant hacker who did 28/29/30 every war. Mal held onto him although it was clear he was hacking. This led to, i believe, two season victories. Finally when the developers caught the hacker he was removed. PA pulled in OzyMandias and TAM consequently dropped out of the top 3 for a season or two. If Joe actually demotes himself to bronze it will be indirect punishment that was never handed out for that unsportsmanlike behavior from so long ago.

Vasseer

I thought at least ANTIC had rules against having alt accounts all in the same guild, and GANZ has said that alts should be played completely separate from each other, why would this not fall under the same banner?

As for my opinion, I honestly don't care, is it against the spirit of GW? yes definitely, but how would it be different from posting screenshots of each passing turn and having my guild find the optimal play? It's not very practical, but it's totally possible and in no way could it be considered cheating. Most of Joe's arguments said that it was unfair to have the best players playing multiple sets, but there's nothing preventing anyone from asking for advice during a GW game and while I understand it's different, it's not that much. Really, I think it's a completely legit thing that you can do and see no real issue with it (though if somebody gets mad at you they could completely screw over your account, so I wouldn't really recommend it).

As for the dev's response, I'd much rather they were honest and said they have no way of enforcing it than saying they'd look into it and then never doing so because they know it's impossible. Even if you were able to enforce this, who would you punish? The player lending out the account? The player using the account? The king of the guild?? I can't realistically imagine them banning EVERYONE in DD just cause they were doing this.

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

Guys, if they tone of this thread doesn't change, I'll lock it. There is a valid discussion about Guild Wars issues in here, but there are WAY too many personal attacks going on.

We do take fairness seriously. We plugged numerous security flaws in the original code that were being exploited by hackers. We made out policy on using alts in Tournaments and Arena very clear. We also care about our players enjoyment of the game - we've put in multiple features to stop trolling.

But this is a grey area. There is no direct cheating occurring. The battles are fought, valid attack decks are being used, and no exploits or hacks are being used. The only question is whether or not we should make a hard and fast one player, one account rule for Guilds.

If this is what players really want then we can consider how to implement it technically.

But do not think that IP management is a fool proof system and would not be without other restrictions.

And one more thing: NO DISCUSSING METHODS OF ACTUALLY CHEATING

JosephMagnus

Oh, thats was all i wanted in the first place.

Despite some completely passionate things i had to read from ppl defending their feud, i will try to do a reasonable breakout of account-sharing implications:

1) Account sharing ends with the need of recruiting when a member is away;

2) It ends with the need of motivating/disciplining lazy guild members;

3) It opens for the possibility of letting a player that is known as a bad scorer for the end of a war in case of need, so better players can turn it around;

4) It Allows for a good player use someones account to test a new strategy, or even scan the defenses; each guild have a unique set of defenses, so attacking PA isnt the same as attacking alpha, and a player that attacks 6 times, wich was the case CallmeGod admitted to me, is unfair advantage;

5) It gives too much advantage to ppl that doesnt have anything to do in life. Do we really want to come to the point a guild have 5 players that can do all wars cuz they doesnt have any occupation? Theres alts for that, use in other guild.

6) It makes the game look dumb in new players eyes if they join the game and get to know it is enforced by the devs; every serious online game i knew had anti multi-user acc policies; shows weakness in dealing with cheating, wich can be seen as a opportunity for ppl to do so in tourneys and arena;

7) It takes away the need of tutoring weaker members, wich is totally unfair since it consumes tons of time and energy;

8) It totally CAN be used in arena for the same purpose, since no one knows its your alt; boosting your rating that way would be simple and sneaky as hell.

9) With 15 attacks, it allows that weaker or lazy players do the easy wars and the hardcore players do the hard ones, wich is completely against the spirit of guilds;

Thats just 9 quick reasons i think you should care for acc sharing Karl. Tnx for caring for this matter.

Edit: and 10) one of the most important; it makes things go in a way that those guilds that doesnt want to give passwords (wich is a stupid thing to do and never recomended when using internet) are already at a disadvantage)

mmabistra
mmabistra's picture

You should lock it immediately than.Because calling someone a cheater is an insult.

cewen

I'll put my comments in here;

1) Thank you TomKat and Rosa for at least admitting it. That at the very least shows sportsmanship
2) I agree with Grwaaa and Karl. This is not "cheating" but rather dirty play
3) Its a HUGE risk. Do you REALLY know who your "teammate" is? They could quite easily;
-request the account to be deleted
-request the account to be banned
-steal the account completely
-change the password
- or do something stupid, like ranting in chat and also getting banned.

I remembered when something similar happened like this, but with the game yugioh, and their "best" player, Patrick Hoban for the final 3rd game. When he promised to his opponent that they would both take out a "Djinn, Realiser of Rituals".
Seems fair, right? Partick swapped a Djiinn for a second Djiinn . . . .

This is could be related to this entire thread. It isn't "cheating" but sneaky/dirty play it definitely is. And there just isn't a way to stop it. When there is a way to abuse something, it will be abused.

However, I think Joe and the other PA members should give him some slack. He came clean, didn't he? So whats so bad? Kicking him while he's on the ground won't help anything, just cause more arguments. Just build a bridge PA, man up and win! -_-.

And as karl said, they still have to take the time to play those battles, let alone win them. Which shouldn't be so easy with PA's "cheating defence".

Overall, its very sly tactical play that I wouldn't recommend. But reality said, it takes too much time, you gotta win, and you got the list of cons I provided somewhere above. So its balanced; Sneaky play for risks.
And with that, I firmly say; DD are NOT cheating. But cheers for admitting it anyway TomKat :P

archa1983

Hello everyone,

First: To be completely honest I am actually surprised accountsharing is being done on such a large scale. There is only 1 person I share my account details with and that person i can look up in real life and kick his ass. This is also not shared to play guildwars with or arena. But to help with deckbuilding and see each others cardpool. Cewen explains the risks above here. If you are actually naive enough to think your account will not get abused by this anonymous person you have been chatting with for several months you are going to get surprised some day.

2nd: It has not been a secret that accounts got shared from time to time to fill in for wars. However this was not done on such a large scale. And this was also during the time you had to play 30 wars x 3 and there was more than 1 guild trying to compete for first place. Doing wars for 5 players against 4 different guilds x 30 wars is to much for any person to bear. Doing 5 wars against 1 guild x 15 even I can do while i have a full time job and kids. No problem.

Does DD deserve this outrage from PA because they are pulling this Multiaccount abuse. The simple answer is: No, not yet. Should DD stop doing this? Yes. Please......

The thing is that guildwars in its current form is quite stale and repetitive. The only motivation to play right now is to get a steady income of gems and to actually have the illusion that you are fighting for your spot amongst the best guilds. I completely understand PA their frustration. At this time they are trying to be the number 1 guild in this game. They do this with 15 different and active players (I assume). And they have been competing to be and to remain the number 1 guild for many years. DD has done the same for a long time but they seem to be cutting corners now. (for how long? I don't know...) It is not a fair fight and it needs to stop.

I want 15 active players in a guild that combined are better than our 15 active players. The idea that i am losing due to multiple 15/15 scores wich are being done by the same person is disheartening.

Can we come together on this and admit this is not the path we want to walk. Let us make a pact.

No account sharing to play guildwars or fight arena wars for ratingboosting.

I want to suggest that all the guildleaders in Epic league post in this topic that they will not take part in account sharing and that they communicate with their members they do not want this to happen. Be a guildleader and a guild that people would want to join at all time. And if you lose a member know that you can replace him. Give other guilds a shot to compete against you. Make this league an actual competition.

JosephMagnus

At least a intelligent opinion.

Just have in mind that all our outrage was caused by TomKat's refuse of giving up the strategy, instead giving several silly excuses (includind citing you Archa, as shown in the screenshots i posted above), and Karl´s statament that this was allowed and encouraging us to do the same. Before those happenings, i was cool, and asking my guildies to "chill out and let me handle this politely".

PA have 15 members, only two below 30 years old (24 and 28), yet some people prefer to call us cry babies instead of providing any valid argument for why account sharing isn´t unfair competition. It´s rather "ohhh Alpha did this, TAM did that, Lothlorien was a hacker..."

shaqair

I'm not "providing any valid argument for why account sharing isn't unfair competition", Joe. I'm not a member of DD and I haven't been in a long time so I'm not defending them when i brought up what PA did. The reality of the situation is that PA held onto a hacker when even most of their own guild knew he was hacking. Why do you think that was done? I don't think it was based on the presumption of innocence. So this is the precedent, scores above all else, especially sportsmanship. Also, let me be clear, i'm not accusing you of anything pertaining to that situation. I'm just pointing out a reality. What comes around goes around.

JosephMagnus

Yes, it was presumption fo innocence for3 reasons: not always he scored 30/30; he played only a season and a half; we were waiting since season one for Karl to check his battle logs, but GANZ had just bought the game and had no time. If we had kicked him without proof, Alpha would surely have grabbed him. And if we were wrong, we would just lose the best player ever. We interrogated him, and he cliamed innocence obv.

Interesting fact, it was my first 2 seasons at PA, and his overall score at season end was just marginally above mine. The guy covered up well, what turned him out was the fact that he played too fast, wich btw was tracked by Bebitop, a PA member.

Fun fact: despite what you said, his first season here we finished 3rd. We won his second, but only 1 alpha win was decided by his score, the rest of the season we won confortable. Still wrong, so we apologized to everyone and promised to keep tracking hacker (wich we did other times in fact thanks to nouser, reported to GANZ, but in private).

Ask Karl and you will know that Malhavok was behind 2 or even 3 hack findings that led to Karl update the anti hacking system.

Thats all we wanted in this topic, a apologyse and a effort to stop a dirty behaviour (since ppl here admits its dirty but not cheat, go figure semantics). Im just surprised DD ppl insists this is OK because some1 did this or that...

shaqair

well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. Like you said yourself Bebitop suspected it, and when your own guys suspect something....secondly it was obvious to outsiders. Thirdly like you said Alpha would have scooped him up. That just proves my general point about scores being held in priority over sportsmanship. Why would do you think they would scoop up, a known, but not a proven hacker? BTW sorry being wrong about the fact that you didn't win 2 seasons with him.

Finally, I don't know what good sportsmanship is to you, but for me it means doing the right thing, not waiting for proof. Just like everything else it's about semantics.

archa1983

I am sure everyone and every guild has done something in their past that they are not proud of or could have handled better. That should not be a reason to validate the situation at hand.

It is also not only PA that has to be taken into account. There are other guilds trying very hard to catch up to PA, Alpha and DD. They require a level playing field as well.

So if you want to accuse DD of wrongdoings in the past. Go for it. But start a new topic.

Please stick to the point at hand.

The situation at hand is: There is multiple account sharing going on in DD in the past season or multiple season. PA has requested to stop this.

I stand by them in this request, As does Cewen and I am sure many more will join in this request.

shaqair wrote:well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. Like you said yourself Bebitop suspected it, and when your own guys suspect something....secondly it was obvious to outsiders. Thirdly like you said Alpha would have scooped him up. That just proves my general point about scores being held in priority over sportsmanship. Why would do you think they would scoop up, a known, but not a proven hacker? BTW sorry being wrong about the fact that you didn't win 2 seasons with him.
Finally, I don't know what good sportsmanship is to you, but for me it means doing the right thing, not waiting for proof. Just like everything else it's about semantics.

cewen

Correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure nouser was against Loth and reported it to malhavok in the first place . . . .

Also many other players had a funny feeling (me, hotdog etc).

I remember taking somebody in to my guild (will not say name here, but was not Loth). When nouser said "he's a hacker, sure you want him?" I just kicked him :P. He is still on the game today in a high ranking epic guild.

Either way, I agree with archer. Call a truce, lock the thread and simply be done on it. Lets just all play fair :). Besides, I like almost every player at demonic, for 1 fault, why destroy 2 years work or so?

Also i'd like to just make a statement here; I also did a wrong. When I had started my own guild and turned my guild-ies (Dandelion and Psychmantis1 as examples) into strong players.
When we reached epic guild for the first time, I was distraught (Baha wasen't winning those guild wars) :/

I left my guild and went to RS (mrsun000 running it at the time)'s guild. Thus, my own guild started tearing, with psy1 and dandelion both leaving (as well as the rest of the guild)
Then I left RS a few seasons later heartbroken that my guild slumped all the way to sliver. So as I left.
(Thus the creation of psychomantis1 and Dandelion being champions and rulling RS etc.)

That's my fault. Sorry! xD. Didn't mean to make such powerful allies that would change epic guild forever :P (taking out such guilds as pirates and Rhythm of Love)

My main point; Build a bridge over it, forget about it. I would also strongly ask for this thread to simply be blocked to ensure this is case closed.

Leto

Sharing is Caring! :p
Ain't No Fun If the Homies Can't Have None!!!

waynn7788

d'accord !

Yeah we did some small tricks here and also took our chances of acc.

Still, Tom earned scores by his own hands and also didn't make the bad scores improved.

If anyone in PA could really spend their time on taking cares of their guild mates, they would't post the articles here :(

KKanon

I think this is the perfect moment to mention that Pochwa's are squeaky clean! Our members never enter another account. We do all the hard work ourselves, even when we get pounded. We may be lying on our backs in the Gold League for now, but we plan to finish on top some day. We just need to find the right rhythm to get us there. It comes with experience, and we are working on it everyday. Soon we will find that gem spot.

- KK

3e3

+20K

It is tots true. Our pochwa is the cleanest i've ever seen. We work hard to make sure everyone who comes in our guild has a pleasurable experience and feels entirely satisfied after. Also, we are 100% discrete! Pochwa ftw! \o/

archa1983

.........

3e3 wrote:+20K
It is tots true. Our pochwa is the cleanest i've ever seen. We work hard to make sure everyone who comes in our guild has a pleasurable experience and feels entirely satisfied after. Also, we are 100% discrete! Pochwa ftw! \o/

waynn7788

Whatever you said, It's just a game. We are sly and sneaky but we win a lot. Real wars goes the same way too taking any means to win ! Besides, we DIDN'T VIOLATE any rules.THAT"S HOW THE REAL WORLD WORKING.
If Tom leaves because of your so-called justice, the game will lose one of the best player.
#If you are not happy, you can try to make a game with a perfect environment instead of bothering so many people.
Ace-D-Wolf

waynn7788

Alright, Happy ending !
Making the guild wars no fun now.
Tom left.
PA can have more chances to win their champion now. What a honorable way punching others instead of improving skills yourselves.
Again, we didn't violate any rules and hacked.
Really, taking any means for victory like us ! Great enemy ever.

cewen

:*(

If I didn't have my own guild (being king) I would join demonic to keep it alive and worthy :/.
Have a good one tom . . . you shall be missed . . . :(

Irony though, so i'll say here; Demonic used a "cheating" tactic to win wars. PA abuse and attack other guilds to knock em out. So should we all be attacking and calling out PA for "cheating"? . . .
*No is my answer, because im more responsible* But just a nice - brain teaser :).

mmabistra
mmabistra's picture

I was in DD back in a days.Tom is one of the nicest people i met in this game.Always calm and composing,always eager to help.One word for you Tom,gentleman.

So i cant belive the amount of hate i am reading on this post towards Tom from Joe and some of members from Pa(not all of course).This is just a game,what happened to you guys?.Lose or win,just a game.He did nothing evil.He just played a fucking card game.Nouser had two accounts,so what?All i see here is bad loosing.

Aethon

I didn’t want to take part in this but what’s going on is totally unfair, so even I didn’t take part in the account sharing, I am going to stand up for my guildmates. In this topic 3 PA members called us cheaters, but no one of them has written down which rule we broke. I guess this is because we didn’t break any rules.
Unjustified personal attacks drove Tom away from his guild. Until Tom is convinced to return to his rightful place, I am out of this game too. (I honestly hope there is someone who would do the same for you Earthconstruct).
As for the “grow up” thing, Joe, it has to do with the behavior and not the age. PA members quite easy consider leave the game when an inconvenient situation appears (before this post were the situation you thought guilds will reset and before that something else etc). Acting like a drama queen doesn’t fit to a grown man. I know, I just did the same but unlike PA members I am already out. See that, we are man of our word in DD and that’s why we were able to trust each other.
Cewen, considering how PA is handling (personal attacks, irony) this no-cheating situation and the fact nouser never caused a problem in DD, I also believe that PA gave him a push to the dark side.
PA members claim that they only care for the competition, but I can’t see how driving players out of the game is helping.

kain

it was hard work to get there, were we are now, im in this "cheating" guild, did not noticed a thing about player sharing an account, all up there in epic are play cheating thania and ichor defs. now the guild is breaking apart, cause no one wants to deal with bad losers and this bull****. Thx for destroying the guilds u cant deal with, kainblood ps: tom left, cant find words *****, sorry im really upset

shaqair

So let's summarize. Joe's screenshots prove that Tom didn't think what he was doing was wrong or against the rules. Joe followed up with his suspicions and was told that it was not cheating and that he could engage in the same activity. Instead of accepting that, members of his guild came here and accused Tom of cheating and destroying the integrity of the game. Considering that mmabistra describes Tom accurately in the above post, Tom left.

So lets see where this leaves us. We have a behavior that everybody seems to think is against the idea of sportsmanship, but it is legal and sanctioned by the developers. People will engage in the behavior because it actually levels the playing field (whoever the dolt is that said it does the opposite, i can't imagine how dense you must be), but they will not admit to it because of the atmosphere created in this thread.

Now, on to this idea of sportsmanship, since archa1983 didn't seem to understand what i was saying about it above; sportsmanship doesn't exist in this community if you define it by "doing the right thing." PA doesn't have it, Joe certainly doesn't have it, and neither does anybody else. PA created this thread to publicly shame DD for an activity DD didn't see as unfair or cheating. As Joe's screenshots indicate Tom didn't think what was happening was wrong, so why would he change what he was doing? He wouldn't and since PA found this unacceptable to them even though Karl sanctioned it , they drag Tom's name through the mud. Great sportsmanship right? I can name 2 other clear examples where Joe himself shows no sportsmanship as I've defined it. Not a single person reading this would change their own behaviors, if asked, if you didn't view the behaviors as wrong. Why did you come here expecting somebody else to do it? since the guy has integrity and this was how you treated him he apparently left, shame on you all. A bunch of hypocrites hiding under the banner of sportsmanship to get your way. You're like people who get offended at a comedy show and then go home and blog about it demanding an apology. Sickening.

My portal is kongregate.
My name there is : Shaqair
I just redid my password there: gofuckyourselves

Whoever wants it can have it. I hope it's used, if at all, for mischievous means. I also quit.

edit: Kongregate has informed me that my email and passwords have been changed once again, so whatever happens in game will not be me. Took all of a couple of hours to let that sportsmanship shine.

Svarog Zrinski II

Right on spot Shaqair. Well said. Although, very sad to see another great player, and from what I can see, nice person, left the game.

Svarog Zrinski II

I'm not even gonna bother to comment all this bs I just read here. Just wanted to say Tom, u have and always will have my support. Hope u change ur mind and come back soon.
Svarog Zrinski

Topic locked