Bothar was nerfed Wrongly

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cewen
Bothar was nerfed Wrongly

The correct nerf should has been his first ability from 3 charges to 4. To allow mek to live slightly longer now with all the mek hate. Just my opinion though.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Said the same thing in another topic. Although I wouldn't put back his 5th charge to 2 mana just yet. I would try it for with 1 mana, but remove the ancient card condition for it.

I would also lower the mana cost limit of the gear he removes. Pretty much destroys any deck that tries to play with support gear just by being bothar.

Zero

I'd agree with this, however if the first charge was 4 I'd also buff the 'target creature' portion to giving 1att + the 2 splash. I'd really like a change like that, since bother really is only all that competitive anymore when facing mek. The nerf really just made him weaker against all of the other heroes that he was 'okay' against.

shaqair

You can play a gear based deck with ravinova and dominate bothar. But that's an exception to the rule.

kdualpha
kdualpha's picture

Yeah, he breaks gears so easy making impossible playing with gears.

4 charges is nice cause splash2 for itself is very fine too.
And like Oncus said the first ability also supose to remove only low mana gears, there are no sense make a 3 charge ability destroying a 4+ mana gear.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Well it doesn't really destroy gears of 4+, but does 3 or less, which more than it needs to. Would limit it to 2, and maybe keep the charge at 3. Or move it to 4, but keep the 3 mana gear destroy. But even at 4 considering how much a splash 2 can do damage, it would still be a good ability.

bobbyjohn

I think the rate of charge is the bigger issue iit is charged so often that it is basically impossible to play around meaning a deck which requires a low cost gear is shut down just by facing bothar, with no real disadvantage to bothar if he isn't facing a low cost gear deck.
I would prefer the ability as it is now at 4 charges or 5 charges where it destroys target 3mana or lower gear and another gear of 3 mana or lower. The 5 mana option would be more efficient against gear spam but would allow other builds to gain some utility from their low cost gears or play around the ability. Not sure how i would change the splash option to work with 5 charges.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

I agree that Bothar is too opressive against decks that use gears as support, but at 5 charges it would be too much.

I would do the following

Make his 3rd charge become 4 and limit the gear removal to 2 mana gears
His 5th charge draws a card, and all creatures get +1/+1

In this way you reposition some of his power towards creature buffing rather than oppressing gear decks. Because he loses a bit of his early lane control (splash 4th charge) he will have to work harder to get the full extend of his 5th charge because keeping creatures alive until then won't be as easy. But the the effort is guaranteed to pay off.

cewen

I would still just making bothars first ability 4 charges, and can still destroy 3 mana gears
.

cewen

That's absurd. Bothar is fine the way he is just now anyway. If his 3rd charge is moved up, i'll be seeing a lot more MEK conquering limited. So bothar's 1st ability to 4 or 5 charges is out of the question I think.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Whats the difference between MEK and Bothar dominating? Honestly, I can't see why moving his charge to 4 would go from oppressive against MEK, to being dominated by him. He may need to pack and oust or two, but i don't see him needing anything more.

bobbyjohn

Firstly if Bothar's abilities have to remain completely flexible and at 3 charges as it is the only method of dealing with MEK then MEK is the issue and should be changed, one hero should not be the only thing that keeps another hero from dominating the whole meta.

Secondly explain to me how removing 2 gears every 5 turns instead of 2 gear every 3 turns suddenly makes MEK unstopable. If it's that with two extra turns MEK can fully charge all of his abilities because of opus then i think opus is the problem as MEK can win with just his charges alone. I don't think Bothar can be allowed to be as versatile as he is with such low charges.

The problem is at 3 charges he is so oppressive to any deck which uses one or two low cost gears to compliment the deck. Bothar can use his ability to compliment his board control and then take out a gear that is played within 3 turns. Gear based decks are usuallly a counter to creature decks but Bothar shuts them down.

cewen

Before we start, I'll remind you here that BOTH hero's were nerfed (Bothar and MEK)

1) it isn't dominating, as you saw in blog by the statistics even with bother, MEK is the strongest. bother comes in 5th place. Dominating is not the correct word.

"While the top echelon of heroes hasn't changed, (Arcanos, Thania, MEK, Jorma, Bothar - in that order)"
-Blog

2) removing 2 gears every 5 turns rather than 3 is suddenly making mek more powerful. That's allowing;
-To possibly re-use opus to get another shield, banner and token creature out.
-Draw 2 cards (Not including war banner if enemy got it out, which is more than likely)
- gain 2 turns worth of mana (4) plus whatever cards are banished

3) If you ask me, there really shouldn't be a gear deck. There was Quick Draw cannon, a gear deck. Caused problems for the game numerous times. There were essences. Drove players nutty and scream behind the screen while pretending it was already (after a 10 min game) saying "GG". Essences aren't fun. And don't get me started on Glue Gun . . .

If you like gear decks, then use cards like indestructible, and if you need it on demand, play 1-3 rune tomes also. If Bothar was not in place, MEK would be trumping limited arena (at least limited, possibly standard too).

Not only that, but Bothar has many counters (e.g thania, acornos spell spam, baha burn, ravi discard, archa's unnys/abbadons vampires) can ALL take down bother.

If you want evidence, please talk to AnnArbor and his jorma, or archa. they have cost me hundreds of rating, but if you don't belive me feel free to ask them :). (archa even recoderd himself beating my bother several times with his unnsy in limited, on YouTube)

So as long as MEK has his counter (Rust and bother) and Bothar has counters (all the decks and many more mentioned above) are HIS counters, then is it really dominating?

Hope this explanation cleared up stuff for people, and that I don't have to go back to this topic again :)

bobbyjohn

1) I didn't say that Bothar was dominating I was replying to your comment that if Bothar is altered then MEK will conquer. I will repeat that I believe if creating a hero (Bothar) which makes a whole section of cards unplayable is the only thing stoping one hero (MEK) from conquering the meta, then that hero (MEK) is the issue. As a side note I think that usable gear removal cards would be a far better method for dealing with this.

That statement also is related to standard and not limited. But either way my issue with Bothar is not that he's overpowered or that he is used by too many people, its that he shuts down the use gears which cost 3 mana or less. Its the equivalent of having a hero which can implement silence for 2 turns that can only be removed by using a rare card or higher with no use against other decks.

For what it's worth I agree with archa that the costings for Bothar's abilities are way off.

2) As I said previously if your problem with the first charge being two turns slow is that MEK can use all of his abilities two more times that is an issue with opus, every other hero shouldn't have to draw a gear removal card the same turn opus is played or face having all of MEKs charges go off each turn until they draw some removal. Other people have suggested previously that opus cards could be changed to give less benifit but have lower activation costs.

In the other scenario you sugested where MEK can draw two cards, you could just save the ability for when MEK is about to play his banner. (I know that is any given turn with the current opus but I am talking about in general not just against that specific build.)

3) I specifically wasn't talking about gear decks but about decks which utilise 1 or 2 gears to augment their strategy, be that increase the strength of their creatures or to aid with milling ect.
I have no problem with implementing mass gear hate into the game as I believe there isn't nearly enough of it, I think bothar has a significantly larger impact on any deck which utilises a single gear as support and he does it so efficiently that it makes any support gear unusable.

archa1983

I can not agree with anything said in this discussion.

Personally I feel that Bothar does not require a slight nerf or a slight change. I believe he needs a radical change. I do not believe the developers and the beta test team were sober when they balanced this hero.

Where do we even start?

Ability 1: 3 charges: Remove a gear upward of 3 mana!. Giving this ability the potential remove a 3 mana card of the opponent. But that alone wasn't enough. In case the opponent wouldn't play a gear card we should give a TARGET creature the ability to do 2 free dmg to another opponent creature. Possible destroying another expensive card of the opponent. Is this ridiculous? Grovenhold can kill a 3 mana creature as well with his first ability. You don't hear anyone complaining about that? Well that ability is 4 charges. And it can only do this to creatures. Not to gear.

But let's move on. His second ability wich is 5 charges is even more over the top. potentially giving 3 creatures +1/+1. Wow. that is freaking amazing. This is not even for just 1 turn. It is a permanent buff to all your creatures. Let's compare this to Belnir who has a 5 mana ability to give his creatures +1 health....... But also armor and regen. That is cool too. So it evens out right?

NOPE. Because this is Bothar let's give this ability even more. Let's make it draw a card. Because if you want to design an overpowered hero. You have to do it right... Right?

But last but not least let us design an ultimate that feel completely like Ancient. Rough dmg to a target creature. A solid creature removal. Because the first ability didn't remove enough creatures already. Or buffing all your creatures isn't threat enough.
4 damage to any creature you like. That'll take care of T'rorr. basically it is a rather flexible Smother. This ability can be well rated as a 4 dmg card. Something around a value of 4 mana. But that alone was not enough for 6 charges. That is right.... 6 charges! Let us remove 3 of the opponents charges. Because why not right?

So we are looking at a Kingdoms: Ancient.
Ancient by itself has great charge gain, great strong creatures, it has removal for creatures and gear. It even has mana gain cards. This kingdom has everything. And best of all it has the indestructable ability in some of its creatures. By far the best race. It only needed another overpowered champion for limited next to Bahamut. Because Bahamut alone wasn't bad enough.

You can tweak Bothar his 1st ability a little bit. Perhaps his second might get a slight change. But it will not matter. This hero is overpowered.

The reason why my Uunys "beats" many Bothar build is because it is specifically designed to fight Bothar.

Currently in limited it is either lose to Bothar or join the Bothar army. I will never play Bothar in its current form. Every hero I play has its weaknesses. I do not see a single weakness in Bothar.

cewen

Bothar has many weakness's, ill state that right off the bat. If your unnys was designed to beat bother, then he has a weakness right there.

1) If your comparing everything to older hero's, how do you expect to make new things and go on forwards?

2) This is what we agreed to when we said "lets put 2K into the game". A rock, Paper, Scissors format. everything is strong and has a weakness now (my current normal jorma is 2nd in standard arena as proof, ask for screenshot if you'd like)

3) If bothar's first ability was to only destroy gear, he wouldn't be a "hero". Just a fat guy destroying shit.

4) Giving all creatures 1/1 and drawing a card is already to me. That is only at its highest potential anyway.

5) About charge stones; Name any other charge-related ancient card. Then compare them to alchemy's list of charge-giving cards. THAT is the reason its OK

6) Ancient Kingdom was by far the utmost stupidest and redundant kingdom before LA came. Was only used for its echo blast. So What's wrong with giving the weakest kingdom a bit more power?

7) There is no reason why future sets cannot contain a few "hate" cards to a "dominating" card, hero or ability (an example is circlet of wisdom vrs jorma, and bleed for gob scavenger)

8) The cards are available to beat bother very easily. You have a selection of pure spell burn decks (like baha and acornos) right up to pure mek (ask DariusTheMighty for evidence if you like). He crushed my bother limited with his mek limited (and that was without indestructible, which was in his deck)

9) Summary;

- Bothar got his change. Mek got his change. Both heros were seen as overpowerd and both got nerfed.
- New sets and cards can be added in to balance the game in short/long term
- without bother, mek would rule the world and all would hate him.
- bother isn't "overpowered". Just has options. No reason why bliner or unnys cannot be buffed to have extra options (e.g; Destroy ally creature gain mana and health equal it the creatures attack and health OR give enemy creatures curse 1 and doomed - unnys last)
- Many ways to beat bother. If you cannot adapt your deck or change your deck to try out new stuff, tough. Try new things (I saw your dust deck archa, it was pretty dang awesome)

(This "response" is just in general)

Oncus
Oncus's picture

After assessing Bothar again (from playing as him and against him) I am boldly suggesting to remove gear removal from his 3rd charge altogether. It's way too oppressive for any deck that uses gear as support and many cool decks like vampire + bloodbound dagger, angel decks with angel feather and a lot of new set gear such as stone of simpicity, flag of allegiance will never see enough play as long as Bothar remains viable.

Bothar already has an ultimate that can destroy any gear + he is ancient and has access to a whole arsenal of gear removal cards. The slash 2 is fine as a 3 charge, and doesn't need versatility in a form of gear removal for a 3 charge.

hopeprevails
hopeprevails's picture

It could be changed to remove token gear maybe

Vasseer

Better as cost 2 or less I think

Oncus
Oncus's picture

2 mana gear cards are the most interesting support gear cards. I think removing tokens is fine.

bobbyjohn

I agree that if you allow it to target 2 mana gear most support gear becomes redundant. Allowing it to remove tokens is currently fine although if opus is changed and MEK can't send out his ultimate each turn this might be harsh.

TomKat
TomKat's picture

Nice idea :)

cewen

If anything is needed, I say bump it up to 4 and leave it unchanged. That would be enough.
But that would be all I do to him at max. Honestly, the rest is alright.

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

I'm going to step in here.

The goal of Bothar was to make a hero that destroyed gear builds. Support or no support. Inherently, there is nothing wrong with this as a concept. Let's face it, we already had a hero that could destroy gear - Ravinova. But as Ravinova wasn't played a lot - wasn't "viable" as Oncus puts it - gear decks could continue to be played with impunity.

If there is a problem with Bothar, its that his other side - his anti-creature side - is too strong. He inherently brings the opponent onto the battlefield and is strong there as well.

The issue isn't that Bothar is "viable," its that he's currently dominant. When you're playing against him 50% of the time, then yeah, you're not going to want that support gear. But if you were only running into him 1 in 4 games (still a lot for a game with 27 heroes), and that gear gave you a serious edge 75% of the time, then it is worth running.

Expect Bothar to receive another round of toning down, along with MEK and the already mentioned Thania change. We are also in the process of buffing a number of other heroes, including the longstanding request to get all of the 15/2s to 16/2s.

cewen

Well, make sure its a decent nerf :P. I still want my bother to be able to get 2nd in arena, that queen of dragons I definitely worth it <3

EDIT; 20 gems bet that its his final, being put onto 3 damage instead of 4 :D

Oncus
Oncus's picture

I think this is where we have a disagreement. I don't think a full anti gear hero in inherently ok to have, same as if we would have an anti creature hero that beats 99% of creature decks.

Dominant or not, isn't an important factor for me. Wanting to climb up the ranked ladder, sure it's only important that your deck wins most of the time against most decks. You can lose 100% of the time to Bothar, but if you win 100% of the time against 3/4 of other decks, it is still worth it. However, it's not all about ranked play. For most players I think it's the match feeling fair. That they could've done something differently, or gotten different cards. That they could win if they make non-core changes to their deck. If you make a cool, interesting gear supported or based deck and lose every time you face a certain hero, that is really demotivating, because it feels it was nothing you could have done in that place - the match was decided before it even started.

That's why I have a problem with anti-X heroes.

Also, if Bothar falls in popularity, and you create a super gear deck that dominates 100% of all non-Bothar decks, be sure that Bothar will become dominant again. If that doesn't look plausible, nerf bothar, but not MEK, and you will see that super gear deck rise in no time.

shaqair

Alchemy thania opus, a gear based deck stands up to bothar. In limited opus ravinova dominates bothar. Wanting to nerf the only gear that can compete with bothar and then complaining that bothar crushes all gear decks is tantamount to holding contradictory ideas.

PS, I already know how you're going to respond to that

Oncus
Oncus's picture

If you knew I was going to say "except opus decks" then I don't get your comment :P

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

"If you make a cool, interesting gear supported or based deck and lose every time you face a certain hero, that is really demotivating"

And yet if you build a really awesome creature based deck that loses every time you face an all-gear Essence deck, or anti-creature Vial of Fire/Caltrops deck, or EBA deck or Inverted Hourglass recursion that is somehow okay?

Every deck has, and needs, counters. The number of heroes that have creature removal abilities: 20. Number of heroes with multiple creature removal abilities: 5. Number of heroes with gear removal abilities: 5 (including Wiloryn's bounce and Nomad's steal). Number of heroes with multiple gear removal: 1.

The game is already heavily favoured towards gear decks because so few heroes have any method of dealing with them and so few creatures and spells are main deck worthy to deal with gear. The game needs a "bogeyman" for such decks.

And to be honest if all gear was just support cards - like the Dagger or Divine Medallion - then I'd likely agree with you. But this obviously isn't the case. We have lots of gear that wins games all by itself.

"Also, if Bothar falls in popularity, and you create a super gear deck that dominates 100% of all non-Bothar decks, be sure that Bothar will become dominant again."

Yes. And then the meta will shift away from Gear decks, and Bothar strategies will fall again. Ebb and flow of the meta game.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Ok, shorter replies this time

And yet if you build a really awesome creature based deck that loses every time you face an all-gear Essence deck, or anti-creature Vial of Fire/Caltrops deck, or EBA deck or Inverted Hourglass recursion that is somehow okay?"

I'm not talking about deck vs deck, I'm talking about deck vs hero. If you lose to those decks, then you know you need to change a few cards for gear removal. If you lose to Bothar, then...don't play gear decks.

The game is already heavily favoured towards gear decks because so few heroes have any method of dealing with them and so few creatures and spells are main deck worthy to deal with gear. The game needs a "bogeyman" for such decks.

The boogeyman feels like a tyrant. I do agree with you there is not enough maindeck gear removal. We still haven't rebounded from Antics decision to nerf gear removal. Maybe it's time to rethink this position and make viable gear removal. Or at least consider to make a gear cap (can be different for different costed gear, like 6 tokens, 3 2-3 mana gear, 2 4+ mana gear etc)

And to be honest if all gear was just support cards - like the Dagger or Divine Medallion - then I'd likely agree with you. But this obviously isn't the case. We have lots of gear that wins games all by itself.

Ok, so how about this? Make all support gear into relics (this would mean bloodbound dagger is considered relic) and make Bothar's 3rd charge only affect shields and weapons . This can solve 2 problems: a) Bothar can't just remove MEK's ultimate skill with a simple 3 charge skill b) Support gear can contest Bothar's reign.

Maybe weapon gears should just be gears that do actual damage in the game (like turrets and vial of fire), and relics could act like "support" gear.

Thoughts on this?

bobbyjohn

I agree with oncus on this, it's not that gears can't have decks that crush them, its that having a hero which reliably destroys their strategy every 3 turns is too much. Is there a hero which shuts down burn, milling, or rush? There are heroes that are better suited to counter them but don't shut them down. It can be argued that dev can shut down large creature decks but that would be more of an issue with the build. I find it frustrating that I can't use the majority of cards from one of 4 card types against a hero because they are inherently only good over a long time period and I have to get instant utility from them.

The problem is that the gear removal cards are not mana efficient and are purely reactive cards so therefore need to be mana efficient. What was needed was more viable gear removal especially multiple gear removal that creates a large swing in the game. This would allow a choice to be made where a player can create an efficient deck which doesn't include gear removal, a slightly less efficient deck which can deal with and target specific gears or a deck which can create large swings against decks which feature a lot of gears. The ebb and flow could be created by including these cards or not including them depending on the use of gear in the meta.

For example I think steel crusher should be changed back to destroying 2 gears, great against gear spam less economic against decks using specific gears. There also needs to be mass gear removal which is common or uncommon rarity. I think the elemental and alchemy gear removal could be moved back to their original form.

archa1983

Speaking of gear removal:

Can mystical and undead take part is this party as well?

Speaking of creature removal: (limited)
Can mystical and holy take part in this as well?

Most of this issue with bothar comes from his excessive charge gain due to a very overpowered 1 mana gear that is impossible to remove by most kingdoms or mana costly to remove by the rest.
Combine that with a very overpowered skillset on not only bothar but bahamut as well and we are l getting to the core of most of the problems.

Opus, extra turn cards, stone of simplicity.

These cards are not balanced in the new 2k theme. Wich is fine.... But not for multiple seasons in a row.

We will see what the next patch brings. Balancing is an art.

cewen

I disagree (mainly comments #30 and #31). Bothar is NEEDED to stop mek or he would be nuts. There isan't enough gear removal from mystical, undead and holy (along with removal for holy and mystical in general).

How to fix this? Work on the aspects that kingdoms are lacking in; e.g. give holy SOME removal and SOME gear removal (that works in limited).

We expected this when 2K came out, we knew kingdoms would lack this, some would lack in that. But the idea is what a kingdom doesn't have now that it needs, it can be made in a future set.

If bother wasen't around, or had NO gear removal, how would mek be in limited? Standard even, easily top 50. Limited; a sure win.

Mek's abilities are very powerful as they are different in a unique way to other heros such as noran and jorma; THEY STAY OVER A TURN. Can you imagine jorma furiously revving everything after turn 5?

Meks abilities cannot be made like theirs though; 1 turn activation because this would suck; "draw 1 card, ally creatures gain 1 attack health and volitle until end of turn" for 7 charges. Or "prevent the next 2 damage your hero would take until end of this turn".

Mek's abilities needed a counter, and rather than intoroducing mek with no automatic counter; bother was made to keep the balance until GodsReborn was made, just to help out a little.

In otherwords, after the VERY small nerf (I hope) that mek and bother both receive, I hope this subject is not touched upon again. Its unnnessacerly, the info is out their people! :/

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Bothar doesn't solve problems. If Mek is the problem, then correct that. I don't see how 80% of players having to play Bothar is the solution.

MEK btw, has really 2 dominant decks. Opus and shrapnel. We know opus is wrong, and we lack counters (unless ceasefire) to deal with shrapnel spam (maybe change it doesn't trigger on tokens?). If either of those deck still become oppressively dominant that they should be addressed next.

As for the lack of gear removal for some Kingdoms, I'm actually quite surprised that Reborn didn't offer any mystical, unaligned *sorry the rune doesn't quite cut it) or undead gear solutions since the lack of it was acknowledged by the devs before the set came out.

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

I think that the upcoming nerfs to MEK and Bothar will get them back in line. They'll both remain popular but won't be as powerful overall. Note that this could lead to Arcanos dominating - we'll be watching him closely.

bobbyjohn

By that logic MEK is nuts against every hero other than bothar. I don't think this is quite the case but it's not a good situation.

In a card game people should be able to adjust their deck to counter other strategies not have to pick one hero.
If an issue was envisaged when creating a hero based on pumping out gears they should have released more options/improved existing options for dealing with gears. People can choose to put anti gear in their deck or not. I believe all or at least 5 kingdoms need some method of countering gear even if it isn't as efficient as other kingdoms.