Should there be a limit to the amount of gear in play?

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AntonLaVey
Should there be a limit to the amount of gear in play?

I know it would seem like a drastic change to the game's mechanics, and it is. However, many would agree that allowing those who use gear heavy decks to play as many of the same gear card as possible is practically the definition of OP. It could even be said that it creates an awkward and almost comical scenario when there are over 10 gear cards (many of them duplicates) in play with all their effects being exploited to an insurmountable degree each turn. This problem is further exacerbated by the fact that by contrast, there are only 3 creature slots. My provisional suggestion would be to maybe have a total of 10 gear slots, with each unique card having a limit of 3. The only potential downside I could see to this is that once a gear player has already played their limit of 10, they're almost not even playing the game anymore until one of their gear is destroyed, although it still allows them to play spells with the occasional creature card...

cewen

I actually agree with this, well said sir. I would make the unique card limit of a single gear 4, just like any other card in the game. And the amount of gear slots to actually, be 5.

I would like to see new cards that are like "While you control this gear, you can play 4 more gears. Gears cost 2 less mana to a minimum of 1"

Having the amount of gears set, may actually introduce to side decks, backfire (Considering it gets buffed, still 2 mana, but also removes the gears from play as well as deals the damage). I would definitely have 2 in my tourney side decks anyway :P.

Remember, indestructible only stops DESTROY. If backfire, REMOVED the gears (Up to 5) Then it would be as popular as oust currently is.

CONCULUSION; I just think having a set amount of gear slots stops players spamming gears as fast as they can, means new cards to provide more slots can be added to the game (We have yet for an alchemy set to arrive after all) and also makes cards like blunder blast and backfire strong, without even needing the buff. Awesome :)

pensfan

Just wanted to say agree 100% with this. We only get 3 creature slots I don't see why gear slots shouldn't be limited to say double that or 6. It's a joke when in limited you have people with 20 gear out and since most are relics cease fire does nothing, not to mention if you play an undead hero you can't even use cease fire.

Gear slots need limited and I think there needs to be a removal aimed at "relic" gear or a rune that disallows gear to be played like recoil does for creatures.

Vasseer

I would say no, why? (gonna use a cap of 6 slots for examples)

a) gear are much less fragile then creatures, once 6 gears are in play every gear you draw would be a dead draw. Unlike with creatures where drawing more on a full board is still relevant because your creatures will (probably) die. only thing that happens for this is Recycle becomes WAY more popular.

b)Gear decks need lots of gear, decks like shrapnel cannon that are already doing poorly would become totally unviable with a gear limit. Also makes essence decks a lot worse. It would be like the nerf of the nerf of the banning.

c) Gear decks that don't need lots of gear wouldn't be affected by this cap. ya no the ones you really hate like EBA, they never hit even 6 gear.

d) Changing a fundamental part of the game is straight up gonna piss people off, therefor bad idea.

e) Stealth-nerfs a whole bunch of cards that are fine as is. (duplicate, reconstruct, Ravi, MASTER FORGER)

So ya, it's probably just a bad idea (and would probably be difficult for devs to implement).

@ Pensfan a) what kind of relics are being duplicated, only one I can think of is blessed chalice and hourglass. All the essences and shrapnel cannon and stuff are weapons (also undead has echo blast'n stuff).
b) +1 to a silence/clear/recoil for gears

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Yea we probably should cap gear if only to prevent the rare instances of people stacking so much it falls off the screen but the cap is going to need to be higher than most people get to otherwise we are cutting out a whole bunch of interesting designs for no good reason. I'm thinking 10-15 seems to be around the correct number.

The only decks right now where large numbers of gear is really even an issue is shrapnel cannon and the Ravi/Wilirus control builds in limited. I'm assuming people are generally referring to the latter whenever they make threads like this but just because you lose a long drawn out game every now and again doesn't mean it is an issue. Control already has enough trouble trying to break into the meta so I see no need to hinder it further.

Vasseer

The gear falling of the screen is actually really annoying, so if there were to be a cap it should probably be around there.

pensfan

Vasseer wrote:@ Pensfan a) what kind of relics are being duplicated, only one I can think of is blessed chalice and hourglass. All the essences and shrapnel cannon and stuff are weapons (also undead has echo blast'n stuff).
b) +1 to a silence/clear/recoil for gears

Well to answer your question "relic" gear I have seen duplicated is: Engineer's Ring, Angel's Feather, Thought Retreiver/Destroyer, Short Staff, Sacred Urn, Cursed/Blessed Tome, Compound Cube, Hero Ring, Essence Mantle. I am well aware undead has "echo blast'n stuff", however in limited you get only 2 epics in your deck. That is why I am pushing for backfire to be improved a bit to give us better options vs gear decks.

I just used 6 slots I would be fine with 10.

And I disagree that if you draw more gear after you hit your limit they are "dead" draws, like your creatures you have to anticipate them being destroyed so you can play them when your other gear is destroyed. Also it may make people actually think about what gear they are using instead of just spamming a ton of it and seeing what "sticks" so to speak.

No matter what we need more ways to deal with gear. There is a reason lots of decks in limited and GW use gear.

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

I'll chime in here.

We are not currently working on implementing a gear cap, and we don't currently have any plans to.

That said, if I were to redesign this game from scratch, I would implement a Gear cap. Fact is it would make balancing gear much easier. It would actually add balance to cards like Duplicate inherently. Essences could potentially have lower costs, as the core game design would make them more balanced. Cards like Deploy Cannons would be more challenging to play, and hell, even the original beast - Quickdraw Cannon - would be restrained to the point where its trigger cap could be higher.

As for dealing with gear, we will continue to see better gear removal in the next set.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

It certainly isn't a priority at the moment but the rare occasions when you do see someone run over the gear limit makes the game look a little sloppy.

pensfan

GANZ_Karl wrote:

As for dealing with gear, we will continue to see better gear removal in the next set.

I'll hold you to this Karl!! Thanks for the feedback!. If we aren't getting a gear cap then I'd love to see a card or two that "removes from game" gear like a divine expulsion. It's an interesting mechanic we don't see enough.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

can we fix some of the old gear nerfs while we are at it. At the very least Blunderbuss should go back to dealing damage to the enemy and Smelt should have it's mana gain dropped down to 1.

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

What was the original text of Blunderbuss? I didn't play before the current text.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

It destroyed a gear each turn, then dealt 1 psychical damage to the hero that controlled the gear.

I think blunderbuss needs on enter removal as well (even if there is a mana cap on it)

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Yea that would be nice. I thought Blunderbuss always did damage to the enemy though?

hopeprevails
hopeprevails's picture

It originally only targeted enemy I think

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Quite possibly. I maybe mistaken, but I remember a certain reluctance playing blunderbuss with my gear out. Could've been after the rework though.

DiarrheamazinG

How often do you really see more than 10 gear in play though? Why would this even be a problem?

In playing nearly 3 years and lil over 50k games. I couldn't have seen that happen more than 3 times, if that. And I'm including cards like Deploy Cannon.

This just seems like another entirely random and unneeded nerf. A 3 limit on unique gear? Do we really hate essence thaaaaaat much? In what world is any of this needed?

Please tell me you guys aren't seriously supporting this. I mean, despite having Ceasefire and Echo Blast, I could live with better gear removal. But a friggin gear cap? Again I have to ask. Why are people so afraid of non-aggro wincons?

Sarastro

Agreed, gear cap is lame... I would like something that removes relics, something that drains mana or charges for the amount of cards you have, something that deals damage for the number of gear subtypes, something that blocks on your turn next round, block gear cards being played runeword, block copy cards runeword, something that removes discard pile gear, something that gives higher mana cost to gears.... the list can go on but I got to take the kids to the beach now

TomKat
TomKat's picture

+1, especially for removal of relics and rune word blocking gear

DiarrheamazinG

For sure. I'm all for more answers, that's just fine.

But a gear cap just seems completely senseless. What decks are people even worried about that are spamming 10+ gear? Where are they even seeing this?

The only thing that even comes close is something like Shrapnel Cannon decks, and those certainly aren't some overwhelmingly threatening OP decks. They're just kinda cool, fun to play but never really do terribly much competitively.

Again it just seems like people have some inexplicable fear on non-aggro/non creature decks. You can blow a guy out with Jorma aggro on turn 3 and no one bats an eye. Kill him on turn 5 with gear and/or spells and all of a sudden the tears are flowing and nerfs are being called for.

I'll never understand that. Why is diversity a bad thing?

hopeprevails
hopeprevails's picture

I'd just cap gear at 20, cause after that they become untargetable and unknowable.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

I'm theoretically for capping gear. What Karl said, if the game was made from scratch. Capping would make some gear less useful, and unlike creatures, they don't usually pose enough threat to be immediately remove, which means you can get stuck with certain gear and can't play anymore unless you remove your own.

I would, however, vote for placing a gear cap so that it doesn't fall of the screen. It wasn't that rare of occurance like some people noted. It just happened in a smaller time frame (new ravi and nerfed ravi). In the current meta, I doubt this would occur too much, if it's doable, I say do it.