Skullcrusher Giant

47 posts / 0 new
Last post
Oncus
Oncus's picture
Skullcrusher Giant

I'm quite sure that there have been discussions about this card in chatrooms but I'm surprised no topic exists on this card so far.

So, OP or well balanced?

Personally, I think it is of need of a nerf. At 5 hp it's just too hard to remove without using at least two cards (unless you have archmage or RC) and it's text ability is crazy. Can't block it too, since it removes charges on attacking, not on damaging your hero.

What does everyone else think?

ShawnThorn

It is a bit strong for a 5 cost, but not overly or dangerously so. Since the average power level of LA is overall better than previous sets I believe it is fine as is.

nouse
nouse's picture

i said before this set came out skullcrusher was OP ;)

a nerf so that it has to hit the hero to take charges off wouldn't go amiss. would still leave it a very good 5 drop.

tailings

I too had Skullcrusher as nerf target #1 from Ascend. And here's the start of it....

It is indeed a pretty nasty card, easily one of the best rares in the game. Pretty steep powercreep, that one. But I don't think it needs a nerf, not yet. Much, much too soon to tell whether it's an auto-include, in your face no matter where you look kind of OP. You know, like Fury Stroker, which is much, much more proven to be legitimately OP and it still stands un-nerfified.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Well we have yet to have a solid 5 drop beater that has been playable in standard so I am definitely interested to see how this card plays out in the long run. Rampaging Giant was a dud as was Angelic Captain for the most part. Every other playable 5 drop has offered some form of guaranteed value either on enter or on death to make it worth the risk. Really Skullcrusher should have been released at epic rarity as it will be a guaranteed all star in limited but I am certainly not ready to call for the nerf bat just yet. Iv'e been wanting to explore what it takes to make a good fatty beater and Skullcrusher should help us learn where we should be with it.

cewen

ditto. its all new guys, lets not call any harsh shots on skull crusher yet. Besides, this is a what makes ancient kingdom awesome to play and fun :D. in my opinion, ancient cards should be more like skull crusher, cool and strong :D. Ancient

kingdom means my kingdoms world to me, don't pull it down just because you don't get that 50 gold win in arena :(

Oncus
Oncus's picture

I think every card should have it's strengths and trade offs, even if it's just mana cost. The giant has none of the latter. 5 mana isn't that much, removing the giant usually takes more then 5 mana and sometimes more than two cards, stats are insane for 5 mana even without the text ability. The text ability is strong on it's own. An almost guaranteed charge drop worth a whole turn that can't be blocked unless you kill the giant in it's first turn (which again is either too mana, or card costly).

Right now, IMO, the card is too much of a safe drop, If it get's killed on turn 1, you will most likely gain an mana advantage, if not, you will get a charge and hp advantage.

If it was 3/4 It would've been fine. But that extra hp really makes it that much harder to deal with. The same problem was with Ublockable.

cewen

hmmmmmm. I still say let it sit around for awhile, until we can see how things "roll". we should be focusing on new things, like the new mess up *meant to say update*

SlavoK

why should scavenger be the only thing that messes up the charges?

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

If anything they gave him too much atk. I really think 5 mana beaters need the 5 hp to survive.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

If he didn't have the text ability "on attack" I wouldn't mind having more hp, but his attack should be seriously low as it can be buffed easily. If it doesn't change I exclusively root for hp reduction to 4, so a lot of cards kill him because losing 3 charges even once can be game deciding. He is just too dangerous to let be and too costly to remove.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Like I said even Angelic Captain was unplayable as a 5 drop and that was with flying and armor. I really think 5 hp should be the standard for good 5 drop straight beaters. Granted the charge loss hurts but you do have to get that attack off. It isn't guaranteed value at all.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Without the text ability I would agree with you. However at the moment I can just agree that we disagree.

First of, I don't think that cards should always have a guaranteed value. Old Unblockable had instant guaranteed value, but that didn't make him balanced. Every card should be counterable. Countering rare cards shouldn't cost more resources then it's play value.

As for the giant, you may not get the attack off always, but you will most of the time without major risks to you. As it stands now, there are just a few scenarios that would leave you at any kind of a disadvantage after playing the giant (e.g. Archamage, as always). It's pretty much safe drop. Removing it on the drop turn costs too much.

Some cards that are good against him:

Golemnify - probably the best low mana cost card, although you are still left to deal with a 2/2 which means another 2 mana usually)
Realmcrusher (epic) - most likely worth it
Echo blast (epic) - not a counter, but a 5 mana trade off
Archmage (legenderies) - Clearly an advantage.

There are probably some more counters that I failed to mention, but I'm guessing most of those either require more cards or 5 or more mana and are of higher rarity. Sorry, but that still doesn't seem right to me.

As for the Angelic Captain, she may need a buff, but necessarily the one in hp. Adding a text ability gives adjacent creatures flight and bless or +1 attack, should make her a bit more useful. And if smoother is a problem, then indestructible.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Of course cards shouldn't have guaranteed value. However I do think the standard for 5 good 5 drops without added on enter/death value should be 5hp. However adding 3 atk on top of that may be a bit much.
Also you forgot Expulsion. You can also try to keep it from attacking. Alisten has a very good game on that front but you can also play things like Oppressing Angel Soothesayer or Fae Combatant.

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

Let me say a couple of things about Skullcrusher and then I'll let you get back to your discussion:

1) A 3/5 for 5 is not overpowered. Rock Elemental is a common 3/4 for 5. Solid in sealed but nothing more. I would be totally fine with making a vanilla 3/5 for 5 at uncommon these days. Look at Runed Kermode. That was a statement that players were not getting proper value for their creatures at higher mana costs. The days of french vanilla 2/3s and 1/4s for 4 are over.

2) Creature removal should not always be more efficient than the creature itself. If I play a 3/3 for 4 and you Fireball it for 3, you're up one mana. This is why haste creatures and "On Enter" creatures are so popular and powerful - you get most of your value on the play, so even if you lose some mana on the deal (my 4 cost Thunder Cat for your 2 cost Disintegrate) you're out less. As Skullcrusher does nothing until he attacks, if he can be taken out by 4 mana spells (Smother, Wyrm Stampede) you're out mana with nothing but a corpse to show for it.

So the real issue that anyone is having here is "On attack: Enemy hero loses 3 charges" If any nerf was to happen to Skullcrusher, and I am in no way saying that there will be, it would be here.

nouse
nouse's picture

neither smother nor wyrm stampede kill skullcrusher alone, theres very little except echo blast that takes it out in one. there's no 4 mana spells except divine expulsion which is barely used.

that in itself isn't necessarily a problem, except its a card that you cant afford to leave in play long. you could do something like change shattering shout so it can kill 5 mana cards if you want to print a anti skullcrusher card, shattering could use a buff imo.

i'm now thinking skullcrusher should have been an epic card, since it really kicks ass in limited. but i use it all the time, so maybe i should keep my mouth shut :D

GANZ_Karl
GANZ_Karl's picture

I should have been more clear. There was talk about reducing him to a 3/4. In that case he becomes a target for 4 mana spells. Spending 5 to remove a 5 seems fair to me.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

If anything I would just reduce the attack to 2 and maybe cut the charge drain to 2 but yea definitely should have been considered for epic status in design but can't do anything about that at this point.

ShawnThorn

I think a better nerf would involve lowering his attack to 2 or to make him only drain 2 charges. His durability is what makes him unique and not a clone of scaving goblin. We have needed a durable 5 cost for a while and we finally got it, he just had a bit too much offence with his defense.

hopeprevails
hopeprevails's picture

I'd move the charge drain to 2 and keep his att/hp as is.

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

This feels like the right change (if a change is needed.) The charge suppression is what makes him interesting; I'd hate to see that go.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

You sure he doesn't need a little cut to his atk as well? Seems to me that we would still be a powerhouse at 2/5 and a 2 charge drain. I could be wrong though. Keeping him as a 3/5 would certainly set a high bar for 5 drops.

Grrwaaa
Grrwaaa's picture

I'd misread... I think he could go to 2/5 with 3 charge drain. I wouldn't want to hit both his text and attack and I think his text is what makes him cool.

Lets face it, at 3/5 with text he is situationally better than diryam - more survivability (can tank a drain life or a woeful misery) and as an early drop, WHEN he is finally removed, your opponents charges are near empty. With diryam, upon removal, charges are typically full.

So he is a beast. But I wouldn't want to move the needle twice at one go like was done with MCW.

ShawnThorn

R.I.P. manacycle wizard :'(

Oncus
Oncus's picture

I'd agree that we need more hp on more mana costly creatures. We have a lot of 5+ drops that aren't played because they get fireballed as soon as they enter. 5 health for 5 mana wouldn't be a problem but this is taking things out of context. The issue isn't with his text ability or his health, it's the combination of those two. For a non-epic you should either have high brute force or high utility. The giant has both of them and that's the problem. There are no trade offs. Almost perfectly safe drop.

Removal shouldn't be more efficient always, but it's also important to note that removal doesn't win you the game alone. Also removing 5 hp is just too costly. If removal shouldn't always get you ahead, then at least unbuffed creatures shouldn't force you to spend more mana on their removal than is their mana cost.

There is usually no way to remove the giant without using epic or legendary cards, and even then the best you get is to break even (excluding arhcmage) given that he doesn't get to attack and that you always have 5 mana at the ready.

I'm fine with either nerf on hp to 4, so he becomes high risk-high reward card or a nerf to attack+depleting charges on hero damge, so in that way you expand the range of counterplay, either by blocking or by attack reduction.

wherewolf05hr6r
wherewolf05hr6r's picture

I agree with you, either less health or both the attack and charge removal go down to 2. That's it, I have nothing else to add.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

I would prefer it the 3 charge drop stays, but the effect takes place if it manages to deal damage to the hero, rather than on attack. That way you open up more interesting ways to counter it, while still keeping the giant useful and dangerous to keep in play.

ShawnThorn

I disagree strongly. Nerfing it to "on damaging hero" would be going too far. A reduction to 2 attack would be much better. The control and duriblity are the features that make this card unique, while the high attack is just an add-on. As such I say that if (and I still really do not think it needs one) we nerf skullcrusher, give him -1 attack

Sarastro

+1

this card hasn't proven too powerful imo, but I would say it is epic rather than rare... I pretty much play all my 20 decks every week and none have been overwhelmed by Skullcrusher Giant, that all from mill to aggro there.. nerfing attack is definitely enough, don't touch the charge drain!

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Why is it going to far? it gives the opponnent a fair chance to respond to the threat and fight for his charges. I don't see why not increase the number of ways you can respond to that specific creature card.

ShawnThorn

It is going to far because it is only borderline needing a nerf and a "on damage" is a pretty heavy nerf.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

I'm going to have to agree with Shawn here. I considered a shift to on damage but ultimately the on attack trigger is what makes Skullcrusher an exciting card to play. The dynamics involved in trying to force a hold off on the attack make Skullcrusher unique when compared to the chump blocking game you play against on damage triggers.

Oncus
Oncus's picture

Yes, unique in a way that is exceptionally hard to to stop it, especially in limited. Don't get me wrong, I like the on attack mechanics, just don't think it should be an almost unavoidable 3 charge drop. But, I've said enough on the subject and the arguments in this discussion start to repeat themselves. We will see what the next semi-set has in store for us.

SlavoK

I would not nerf him

gwendard

yes no nerf ^^

cewen

ditto, no nerf. suck it up and give him a meteor to the face ;). besides, you mentiond ways to beat it, right? RC, vul graph, golumify etc etc....

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Oh I think we are going to need the nerf. Skullcrusher is just punching way above his pay grade to remain. If we were to leave it would set a dangerous precedent against which every other 5 drop would have to be measured against. That being said I would like to keep him as is for a bit to see how the meta adapts. For science and what not.

gwendard

yes there is a lot of solutions against . It's not a problem

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

It's not a lack of answers I am worried about. Leaving it will set a precedent by which all other 5 drops will have to be compared and I suspect we are setting the bar too high relative to the neighboring mana groups.

nouse
nouse's picture

having seen it some more, i'd say it would be a significantly weaker card at 2 att, that would be too big a nerf. and its health should remain at 5 for the sake of variety, all the other 5 health cards right now suck :P

if its nerfed (and some people disagree) a reduction in its charge suppression would be best IMO, which ganz wrote earlier.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

What would lead you to believe that it wouldn't still be strong at 2?

nouse
nouse's picture

would still be decent, but there's a pretty big difference between 2 and 3 att. 2 is not great for a 5 drop, even with its charge suppression. rak mul agrees.

Dr.Bojangles
Dr.Bojangles's picture

Rak Mul is essentially a vanilla 2/5 with a solid advantage against chump blocks and he is borderline playable. Skullcrusher's rules text is all around stronger and much easier to capitalize on. Decent is what we want. What we don't want are all stars.

Ozy
Ozy's picture

what we need to do is make more 5 drops worth playing however skullcrusher is very strong

UIOP82

I think he should only drain charges if he damages the enemy Hero.
This is logical (why do the Hero get skullcrushed if a minion is hit?) and makes a fine nerf.

Sarastro

in that case it must drain more charges imo, but I also think we have enough creatures who's ability triggers on damaging enemy hero

mmabistra
mmabistra's picture

Make him like eldest titan.It becomes slow after attack.That is solution.:)